Can't comment on GAA, but I read before that FIFA/UEFA exclude controversial moments from the big screens at games because it constitutes a form of video refereeing, e.g. ref gets an offside incorrect, big screen shows the mistake, crowd gets mad
Same in GAA, not really worth comparing an all Ireland final to 15 vs 16th in the Premier League on the last day of the season. Compare it to the latter stages of the Champions League, or compare a game from the opening rounds of the Allianz League to a CL game and we'll talk
Can rugby genuinely be considered a nationwide sport outside of south Dublin, Limerick and Ulster (mainly east of the Bann)? It isn't an accessible sport for the vast majority of Irish people around the country, is it? Growing up in Donegal/Derry, it didn't really enter my sphere of awareness/consciousness until, aged 13, I happened to catch Ulster winning the 1999 Heineken Cup one Saturday afternoon on RTÉ, and then it was gone again. Being a son of Ulster, I was delighted to see Ulster win that and I felt a sort of innocent pride, but I had no real comprehension of the social dynamic behind the game in Ireland at the time.
I enjoy watching rugby; I think it's a great game for excitement and all that. In fact, I think I would have really enjoyed playing it had we ever done it more than just the once during PE back in school in Derry. I'm sure I've shared this anecdote before, but that week, one lad in my class who was a member of Ógra Shinn Féin had his mother write him a note to excuse him for playing a "foreign game". We all thought it was hilarious as it was so over-the-top, but, indeed, he sat out PE that week. Sure enough, the following week it was business as usual again for us and him; back to playing (association) football, that other game of English origin!
I'm pleased when Ireland win in rugby, but I don't think I'll ever be able to call it "my sport", nor would I feel all that comfortable taking it completely under my wing, so to speak. That's for a few reasons. I'd feel like I was glory-hunting or hopping on a bandwagon because I've never had a connection to the game growing up. I'm not fully up-to-speed on the rules; I'd feel a bit embarrassed getting behind a game for which I didn't fully comprehend the rules. Obviously, that's something one can easily do something about - you can have a read of the rule-book - but the "stench" of privilege, to which MacKenna refers, that pervades the game in Ireland (or south Dublin/D4 mostly) is also off-putting. There's a haughty sense of superiority about it. I should make clear that that's not to condemn everyone interested or involved in the game with the same brush. Stutts, for example, is from a rugby background (if I'm not mistaken), but you're very grounded and aware of a lot of the bull and nauseating stuff that surrounds the game. In Ulster, it was always the sport of unionist privilege and was only ever played seriously by Protestant grammar schools, some of which didn't even have an association football team, as if it would have been "too dirty/common" or something. Foyle & Londonderry College, for example, had rugby, cricket and hockey teams but no football team. Only in the last few years has association football been played in the school. Although pupils from Catholic and nationalist backgrounds do attend in the minority, the notion of Gaelic football being played there would be a pipe-dream. Rugby is shaking off that elitist image now, but for that combination of factors, I just find it hard to call it "my sport", like I do with football. It doesn't remotely stir the same same sort of passions in me.
Football is the truly global sport, which is why, historically, Irish people from all classes, both north and south, have been comfortable affiliating with it. Because it has been a truly global sport for so long, it hasn't had that "British/foreign/garrison/elitist game" stigma to contend with, or at least not in recent times with the possible exception of some ultra-insular GAA folk.
I appreciate the whole privileged and "superior" social scene thing is not necessarily intrinsic to the game, as Stutts says - isn't it considered a sport for all classes and sections of society in Wales (and in Limerick too?)? - but it is something I find somewhat repellent and almost impossible to overlook as it's so consuming and prevalent. I'd feel uncomfortable being completely associated with it as it's just not really "me" or "my thing". Maybe that says more about me than those who follow the game though! I know Stutts refers to possible bitterness in such thinking (with specific reference to MacKenna's piece), but is it bitterness? Or is it just that it has never really been part of my upbringing/culture so the whole social side of it feels a bit alien to me?
When I see the disproportionate level of celebratory coverage dedicated to it in the Irish media compared to the much more popular and accessible football, maybe that's bitterness I'm feeling then!
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 02/03/2015 at 11:02 PM.
The GAA also block out those replays, it's annoying but it makes sense. The referees get enough stick without fueling the fire.
CD- I know most kickers say they'd prefer noise than silence, but are you sure that's the reason for the it? I've always seen it as (an unnecessary) mark of respect. Anyway, there's also silence when Sexton's kicking, so that doesn't really add up.
OT but one of my favourite posts from a football forum was from before Euro 2000. Germany were looking to play England-type teams before playing them in the group stages, so I asked would anyone mind losing that game, if it meant England lost in the tournament. One of the replies was "I would pull my eyeballs out with a blunt spoon if it meant that England would lose at tiddleywinks"!
Well they're not silent at Twickenham, but standing in unfamiliar surroundings full of opposition fans and 80,000 eyes... yeah it would be more intimidating than familiar silence from your own fans in your own stadium. Sexton himself even said that he feels more comfortable being booed since going to France. Everybody boos except us and occasionally some English sides - in 80% of cases the kicker gets booed wherever he plays.
In Limerick you get people doing the "shhhhhhhhh" thing before a place kick even though they're in a pub miles away from the ground.
Laughable really.
The silence is an extension of the traditional schoolboy ethos of being respectful. A lot of rugby's traditions and practices have their roots in school playing fields and competitions and have been perpetuated even into the 21st century because the sport only recently adopted professionalism. Even the late adoption of professionalism is a reflection on how keen rugby was to maintain its connection to its traditional roots in the schools and as a sport played by well-heeled professional types. These standards are dropping now that professionalism has taken hold, but there is still a large legacy of the amateur ethos - which they should be proud of. Of course the powers that run the game seem intent on over-selling their game as a TV commodity without much in the way of downstream redistribution, despite witnessing how football changed by doing the same thing.
I think Owls Fan was somewhat right too though. The silence is also a way of showing that rugby crowds are different to football / GAA / Rugby League crowds, but it'd be a bit paranoid to say that that is ALL the silence represents, and that football is the only target. However, the implication that there is something wrong with intimidating an opponent doesn't hold for me. As with everything, it's a question of degrees. Passionate fervour and doing everything you can to be the 12th man doesn't have to include foul-mouthed abuse etc. Thankfully Irish football crowds are pretty respectful and often quite witty. That's one thing that I really love about football over rugby. While some chants are clearly disrespectful, you'd never get a rugby crowd chanting something like "we shoot burg-u-lars"* or even the variation of the Steve Gerrard song sung by City fans "...he fell on his effing @rse, he gave it to Djemba Ba...". I also loved "Lasagne, woa oh, Lasagne wow oh oh oh, we laughed ourselves to bits when Tottenham got the sh1ts...". Some disrespect can actually be fun.
* Norwich City fans, after a Norfolk farmer dominated the headlines for shooting an intruder. I loved it.
I have to echo what Danny says about rugby up north where there's an extra layer of division between rugby elites and the likes of your average Derry City fan (a healthy social mix). Most rugby playing in the north is done at state grammar schools where the pupils by and large come from middle class and protestant/unionist backgrounds, entry into which is either by academic testing or in some cases by fee paying. Those (protestant) pupils who don't go to grammar schools at post primary level go to what were once called the intermediate colleges, and where football (for boys) would mostly be played. Catholic schools play a mix of football and gaelic sports although in a strange way the snobbishness surrounding football can often be seen as well with a lot of middle class kids/parents sticking to the gah. In some catholic schools efforts are beginning to be made to introduce rugby but this is in it's infancy and hasn't really caught on to any large degree. This move hasn't been reflected by state schools adopting gaelic sports. Some in the integrated sector are beginning belatedly to try camogie etc. but many, like Grosvenor Grammar, are still sticking to what they have always done which kinda undermines their supposed cross community ethos.
The Ulster team's support largely grows out of this mindset which although catholics have been turning up at games in increasing numbers is still largely elitist unionist in outlook. The Ulster banner is still to be seen at ravenhill although the Ulster provincial flag is appearing more so these days (and is always zoomed in on by the on message BBC coverage). Just look at the colours they play in, it ain't red and yellow. I remember when Ulster won the Heineken Cup there were reports of returning Ulster supporters coming under attack by the natives of the markets (a working class republican area beside Central station) and the bewilderment that this caused them. It didn't occur to them that the flags that they were waving in such numbers were usually to be seen hanging from lamposts in loyalist areas and which represented the old Stormont regime and that such a display could easily be miscontrued by the locals. I don't think, for the majority of the fans, that it was an intended provocative action but shows their misplaced sense of entitlement and just how out of touch rugby fans can sometimes be.
http://www.irishnews.com/news/integr...-teams-1383922
http://www.grosvenorgrammarschool.or...tracurricular/
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/n...reland.schools
Aye. No often how often it happens, it's still a shock.
Basically, thugs living beside station wanton attack harmless drunk fans leaving train. You do the locals no favors by condoning them.
I endured a similar attack when a shaven-headed Celtic shirt-wearing lout threw a half brick at me by the corner of Oxford Street. He was no more than six or seven years old, luckily for me if not his future chances of avoiding prison. I wasn't carrying or wearing any symbols that might have offended him (or more likely slightly older brothers etc.).
The rugby-playing school I attended with occasional foot.ie poster Not Brazil* first organised a football team in 2012. Rugby union began in 1868
* Meeting him this weekend for a drink, will pass on regards
Hoods doing what hoods do, isn't it? Derry City fans have gotten similar in places like loyal New Buildings over the years. Police escorts and detours have been necessary for Setanta Cup games. Not that Brandywell hoods don't cause trouble for football visitors either, irrespective of where they're from or what their background might be.
Actually, I was on the number 33 Bus Éireann from Derry to Dublin a few years ago going through New Buildings when a group of youngsters (at least one was wearing a Rangers top) in a field by the road-side (conveniently full of junk) noticed the bus stopped at the traffic lights and proceeded throw small rocks and wooden planks at it. Thankfully, none of their missiles actually reached the windows of the bus, but was still kind of shocking that simply the sight of the word "Éireann" spontaneously provoked such carry-on. Who knows why they were just standing in a field full of junk in the first place... I always felt a bit safer on the Ulsterbus 274. They used to salute that with Union flags in a guard of honour when we passed through!
He hasn't been in here in a while, has he? Pass on my regards and tell him to pop over.The rugby-playing school I attended with occasional foot.ie poster Not Brazil* first organised a football team in 2012. Rugby union began in 1868
* Meeting him this weekend for a drink, will pass on regards
I will check, but I remember a stat back in the early 2000's about the number of Catholics who had played for Ulster, it was miniscule. David McWilliams father-in-law is a rugby supporter, but gave up going to Ravenhill when he had to listen to torrent of (in his words) "sick, vile, sectarian abuse" of Leinster players. He's Protestant and his kids went to Academy (I think) but he just couldn't understand the hatred.
It was interesting to see the lack of attention given to Frampton and other boxers in the recent past (especially in the professional ranks). It could be that fights are not on Irish terrestrial tv/radio, it could be snobbery, it could be just a disconnect. Given that MMA gets enough coverage (despite being a wee bit dubous) I don't know if it is a class thing.
Tennis is hardly a sport for ruffians, but it doesn't get much mention outside of big wins/results (barely).
Osarusan and a couple of other ex-Maynooth hands can remember when we staged a number of big boxing events out in the Pull Pit, the first ever women's amateur boxing match and an Ireland-Scotland fixture. We got decent media coverage, but the main problem lay in the relationship with the governing body (at the time) with the media. It was remarked on three occasions to me that some of the officers were "a bunch of gurriers/knackers". One of the people who said this to me was a former class mate from UCD. In some ways I wonder is this just the prevailing relationship in the Irish media. And I question this in relation to the Irish media's sketchy relationship with the LOI and Irish soccer in general.
In fairness, we play professional rugby at the very top end of the game, both at "club" level and international level. And let's not get snobby about our provinces not being real clubs. Only two countries in world rugby have "real" clubs because only two countries in the world have a single TV market big enough to support a decent pro league. Maybe also Japan?
Rugby fills a perfect gap for the Irish. It is big time enough to be sexy, it is international enough to yield external recognition. And we're good at it.
But is there a different attitude to coverage of the national rugby team versus our football team football in our media? Absolutely there is.
Even my rugby mates are a bit alarmed at the media attention at the moment and think it's OTT. Let's face it though, if there was a world championships for bandwagons we'd own the trophy in perpetuity.
Balls.ie must have had a least seven different pieces, this week, taking issue with comments and selections from the Rugby world analysising the current Irish team. Talk about small c*ck syndrome. It's great that we're doing well, just enjoy it. Who cares if we don't get 100% of the credit we arguably deserve from outside. There are probably plenty teams we haven't given enough credit either because you're never as fussed about other nation's 'golden era'.
Last edited by DeLorean; 05/03/2015 at 7:21 PM.
And I'm afraid that you do yourself no favours by this silly trolling.
When I was a wee boy I went with my daddy to Seaview and we parked the car on the Shore Rd across the road from the ground a bit closer in towards town and were walking up to the ground, no club scarves or anything just a couple of wee boys walking along holding their daddy's hand excited about the game when a brick came down form the high ground to the left of us. I'm sure you know the place well GR it's maybe 40 or 50ft above the level of Shore Rd, it landed just in front of us on the footpath what would that have done to one of us if it had have been a few feet closer? I assume it was thrown by a local, it was wrong then, it was wrong in 1999 and it's wrong now.
Condone my @rse
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