Rugby now more popular than football AND GAA?!

[tetsujin1979]

Does it really matter?

Everyone knows rugby has just as many dubious practices as soccer, for decades...

do they? I've rugby mates who'll swear blind that anything underhand/illegal is "part of the game"
Of course it's not! If it was, it woudn't be illegal!

[Serb]

Does it really matter? Everyone knows rugby has just as many dubious practices as soccer, for decades...

I feel like there are a few of sides to why this attitude exists. Rugby has been professional for less than 20 years. The average person interested in sports in Ireland didn't watch or attend rugby games habitually in the first 10 years of that. They're less familiar with the game in general. Therefore, "cheating" (i.e. diving or other acts to gain an advantage) is a lot less obvious in rugby than it is in football — partially because people aren't that familiar with the rules in rugby. My mum could spot Ronaldo taking a dive, but she wouldn't have a clue if Richie McCaw was lying on top of the ball at the wrong side of a ruck or if Paul O'Connell slightly adjusts his position to block the path of a chasing opposition player after a garryowen. A rugby player would rarely take a dive because it's of no advantage (although it has happened), so they have to resort to more subtle things (or sometimes not so subtle).

[ArdeeBhoy]

These people need to go their opticians then...

[geysir]

Francis was talking about lying on the ball and giving away clever penalties. That is every bit as much cheating as diving or whatever, the only difference is that it's accepted as part of the game.

You want to compare a foul with cheating and simulating getting hit by a player in order to get him sent off?
I would 'strenously' disagree with that opinion.

[geysir]

I feel like there are a few of sides to why this attitude exists. Rugby has been professional for less than 20 years. The average person interested in sports in Ireland didn't watch or attend rugby games habitually in the first 10 years of that. They're less familiar with the game in general. Therefore, "cheating" (i.e. diving or other acts to gain an advantage) is a lot less obvious in rugby than it is in football — partially because people aren't that familiar with the rules in rugby. My mum could spot Ronaldo taking a dive, but she wouldn't have a clue if Richie McCaw was lying on top of the ball at the wrong side of a ruck or if Paul O'Connell slightly adjusts his position to block the path of a chasing opposition player after a garryowen. A rugby player would rarely take a dive because it's of no advantage (although it has happened), so they have to resort to more subtle things (or sometimes not so subtle).

The big difference in attitude is when simulation is glaringly and obviously committed to get another player sent off, there are no repercussions for the offender.
It is not regarded as an offence by Fifa or Uefa to cheat the ref in this way. The offender is actually allowed to reap the reward of the offence with no comebacks. Instead, if a player mildly reacts to a cheat, the book will be thrown at him. That's a perversion of sport.

In rugby the initial offender is treated as the main culprit, but it's a completely different sport with a much more extreme physicality, a different type of ref and attitude is needed to keep the lid on. You might as well compare football to the sport of volleyball, as compare it to rugby.

[DannyInvincible]

Such is the cursed influence of that blasted soccer, even the slide tackle is creeping into rugby now.

[Stuttgart88]

I would love it if FIFA/UEFA would set these things in motion in football, and I genuinely believe it would eradicate so much of both of these problems.

Slightly related, but I see that Platini is suggesting that football introduces a sin bin instead of yellow cards. Part of the rationale is that the accumulation of yellows actually benefits an unaffected team (the team that benefits from the eventual suspension) rather than the team offended against. He cited rugby as evidence that it works.

[paul_oshea]

It would make 10 mins very uneven, but good fun.

[Stuttgart88]

it's a completely different sport with a much more extreme physicality, a different type of ref and attitude is needed to keep the lid on. You might as well compare football to the sport of volleyball, as compare it to rugby.

If your point is that a stronger covenant of respect is actually required in rugby, rtaher than simply something to be admired, then yes I agree. The game would fall apart if referees didn't have the absolute position of ascendancy that they have.

I didn't see Leinster v Glasgow in last year's Rabo play-off semi final but my mate was at the game and he said that the ref was weak and Glasgow went to town on him, playing on every favourable interpretation and lack of punishment of their offending. The more he let it go, the more they did it. That's cheating the ref as well as the opposition, no?

I've seen rugby players (usually English scrum-halves!) taking quick tap penalties and running straight into an opponent who hadn't an earthly chance to retreat ten yards, to earn the penalty and try and get a yellow card for the opponent. I saw Morgan Parra pretend an Owen Farrell b1tch-slap was a full-on punch, and so on...

They do do it. Nowhere near the prevalance of such ridiculous action in football, of course.

But it's a tough one for football. I think they are right, for the good of the game, to have a near zero-tolerance for punching, but I think the game suffers for minor facial contact being interpreted as violent behaviour. It's a fairly easy thing for UEFA to sort out, and blatant play-acting can be punished retrospectively via video analysis. Even if - in fact especially if -players get tough treatment from a video jury then it'll make them think twice about play-acting. Rivaldo was fined about an hour's wages for his utterly ridiculous play acting (against Turkey?) a few years ago. An opponent threw a ball at him for him to take a corner with and he pretended he had been polaxed by some act of aggression. Pathetic behaviour and pathetic punishment.

[Stuttgart88]

And at junior level I have two boys - one a soccer player and the other rugby - there is a gulf of difference from the attitude and respect of the players, to the abuse of the ref and extending to the appalling bias/abuse I witness of from parents on the side at football games.

I don't want to divert this thread into a conversation about youth coaching, but the following is relevant to your post. I wonder if there's a better thread for this discussion?

http://www.thecoachdiary.com/over-coaching/

If a Saturday morning is anything to go by, then our kids are certainly not getting the freedom they need to explore and learn. Most sports parks around the country are awash with adults cheering, but in most cases roaring on their kids and kicking every ball. I would hate to be a child trying to think in an environment like that, wouldn’t you? This undue pressure to have to win the kids game, is making the game they supposedly love a horrible experience and eventually they rebel against the experience and loud supervision from adults to leave the game for good. We need to stop this from happening.

The whole article is worth reading as it relates to broader points about coaching kids, but the above extract was relevant to what we were discussing a few days ago.

[geysir]

I didn't see Leinster v Glasgow in last year's Rabo play-off semi final but my mate was at the game and he said that the ref was weak and Glasgow went to town on him, playing on every favourable interpretation and lack of punishment of their offending. The more he let it go, the more they did it. That's cheating the ref as well as the opposition, no?

Francis was calling for foul play if necessary to run down the clock, yet there appeared to be a refusal from some to accept that for what it was and want to label Francis as saying ireland should have cheated. And now you are giving account from a friend who attended a match with a long list of complaints about the antics of the opposition. So I take it, Leinster were squeaky clean? and we can all rest easy that Irish rugby is truly corinthian? or just maybe your friend was, shall we say, partisan? Regardless of what went down in that game, I'm sure if you pull the rug up on many sports you'll find cheats, whether it's cricket, golf, water polo, ice hockey or rugby. I do note that there are drug tests in most every sport and just why would that be?

I've seen rugby players (usually English scrum-halves!) taking quick tap penalties and running straight into an opponent who hadn't an earthly chance to retreat ten yards, to earn the penalty and try and get a yellow card for the opponent. I saw Morgan Parra pretend an Owen Farrell b1tch-slap was a full-on punch, and so on...

They do do it. Nowhere near the prevalance of such ridiculous action in football, of course.

What is with this desire to unearth acts of cheating in Rugby? - 'well this guy cheated in this game a year ago'. I mean what has that got to do with popcorn and ice cream?
The issue with football is not just prevalence of ridiculous actions but also the institutionalised and widespread approval of those acts. If it wasn't tolerated, it just would not happen.

But it's a tough one for football. I think they are right, for the good of the game, to have a near zero-tolerance for punching, but I think the game suffers for minor facial contact being interpreted as violent behaviour. It's a fairly easy thing for UEFA to sort out, and blatant play-acting can be punished retrospectively via video analysis. Even if - in fact especially if -players get tough treatment from a video jury then it'll make them think twice about play-acting. Rivaldo was fined about an hour's wages for his utterly ridiculous play acting (against Turkey?) a few years ago. An opponent threw a ball at him for him to take a corner with and he pretended he had been polaxed by some act of aggression. Pathetic behaviour and pathetic punishment.

Football authorities are still rewarding blatant simulation with their almost 100% tolerance of that behaviour. You're kinda saying that the cheating and simulation are relatively easy misdemeanours to sort out, therefore it's fixable, not a chronic problem and football will eventually function just like any other game, if only that part was sorted out.
But just how many thousands of high profile incidents have happened since that Rivaldo one (some 12 years ago)? The top footballers are for the most part, serial cheats, Neymar, Ronaldo etc, those players will not think twice to simulate getting hit, fool the ref to get a fellow player sent off and they are applauded by their own supporters, fellow players from around the world and rewarded by Fifa/Uefa for their efforts. When I heard on the radio Chelsea got a penalty at the death against West Brom, I automatically think "dive". If Suarez wins a penalty, you have to ask 'was it a legit one'? That's football every day in the EPl and it's rationalised as being part of today's game.

Until it's sorted out with those relatively easy to apply fixes, you'll have to contend with people talking about the 'soccer disease', the spread of the 'soccer disease' to other sports and the contagious effect of soccer on sport today......... even by rugby folk.

[Stuttgart88]

You were talking specifically about footballers cheating to get an opponent sent off. You were saying there is a big difference in attitude. I was saying that the difference in that instance isn't that big and gave examples. They are not isolated examples of rugby players being less than Corinthian in spirit. Every example I cited above was in response to something you said a few posts ago.

I was also saying that there are some acts that are so blatant that tolerance should not be granted, but unfortunately it is. There are other acts that are less clear cut.

That lesser acts of cheating or different acts of cheating happen in these and other sports is a given.

You need to stop trying to nitpick with people who are fundamentally agreeing with you.

[Paddy Garcia]

.......even football teams can get it right occasionally.

[wonder88]

There was a lot of Connacht rugby tops, jerseys etc to be seen on people in Galway last saturday. Rugby is clearly ahead of soccer with the Irish public now and the League of Ireland has a tough battle ahead and the GAA itself should be worried. Maybe there is a bit of bandwagon jumping involved and Connacht lost that day, but Galway FC will need to get promotion fairly quickly if the are to rival rugby for support in the west.

[tetsujin1979]

That doesn't really prove anything. Are there as many jerseys to be seen in Galway during the off season? Do you see many GAA jerseys around at this time of year?
Of course there's going to be more on view on matchday, and against high profile opposition, it's when there's no game on and jerseys are still on view that you really can say it's taken over.

[IsMiseSean]

People in the West like to wear Rugby jerseys on a night out, which I don't understand..
Walk into any pub in Galway at the weekend and you'll probably see some lad wearing a Connacht/Munster jersey tucked into their jeans!

[CraftyToePoke]

People in the West like to wear Rugby jerseys on a night out, which I don't understand..
Walk into any pub in Galway at the weekend and you'll probably see some lad wearing a Connacht/Munster jersey tucked into their jeans!

Tell me about it, brand Munster, I went for pints a few years back with a few of the lads from school when I was back over Christmas and two of them with their Munster regalia on. I knew these lads through their formative years and beyond, and the fortunes of Irish rugby was one thing that never troubled them in any way shape or form I can tell you. The disdain in which they held the '#@;*"ing rugby jocks' who played in our school team back then wasn't a conversation topic they were comfortable with at all, I recall.

Tucked tight down into the jeans too.

[elroy]

Galway seems to be an area where football needs alot of promotion and development and is lagging behind both rugby and gaa.

[IsMiseSean]

Galway seems to be an area where football needs alot of promotion and development and is lagging behind both rugby and gaa.

I think Galway FC will struggle if they don't get promotion fairly quickly.
Galway isn't really a sporting city, people seem to be only interested in GAA when the teams are doing well and even then the support & interest doesn't seem to match other "GAA mad" counties..

[Crosby87]

This is in the paper:
The top 10 gifts for Irish Men this Xmas that won't break the bank.
1. Magee Tweed Blazer
2. Male grooming gift
3. Aran Winter Woolies
4. Farming boots
5. Authentic Irish iPad case
6. Newbridge silverware cufflinks
7. A new Wallet
8. Irish themed onesie (longe pants)
9. Sunglasses
10. Authentic GAA gear.

Discuss.