Same-sex Marriages...

**Peadar** · 27/02/2004, 2:07 PM

With all the fuss in California at the moment about gay marriages I had a "heated" discussion in the pub last night about it.
While I feel that the various churches are entitled to refuse to facilitate or recognise same-sex marriages, I don't believe that any government in a Western democracy has the necessity or grounds to deny a civil union between consenting adults regardless of their sex. I would in fact almost wager that the State of Ireland will recognise such marriages before 2010.

Where do others stand on this issue?

**Dodge** · 27/02/2004, 2:17 PM

Originally posted by Peadar
Where do others stand on this issue?

Pretty much the same as yourself Peader.

**S�C** · 27/02/2004, 2:19 PM

I'd take you up on that bet Peadar.

The constitution has been interpeted as meaning marraige between a man and a woman.

As civil union conferring most of the rights of marriage on same sex couples could happen but it wont be marriage. In France they have paxed. Its a kinda of official recognition of a relationship. Most male/female couples do this before they get married. Same sex couples cant get married so they stay paxed for life/til they seperate.

**eoinh** · 27/02/2004, 2:21 PM

a marriage is only a legal agreement recognised by the state so i dont see anything wrong with people of the same sex getting married

**Peadar** · 27/02/2004, 2:23 PM

Originally posted by S�C
I'd take you up on that bet Peadar

Wonder what odds Paddy Power would give me?

With regard to the constitution, many people said we'd never have divorce in this country.

**tiktok** · 27/02/2004, 2:26 PM

Originally posted by Peadar
Where do others stand on this issue?

Don't see any problem with it. It should be introduced if only to protect the rights of partners who now can be too easily excluded from hospital information, tax breaks and 'couple-related' rights that heterosexual couples take for granted.

However, the church is still vocal and powerful. Ireland is not so progressive when it comes to 'social and sexual' politics and we don't have a strong Gay and Lesbian lobby movement. It could take time.

**S�C** · 27/02/2004, 2:26 PM

Originally posted by eoinh
a marriage is only a legal agreement recognised by the state so i dont see anything wrong with people of the same sex getting married

Ah but its not. At least not in Ireland for the majority of people.

Think of it, in Ireland Church and State are still very much linked. In France the couple have to go to the registry office after the wedding to register it.

The Churches in Ireland dont approve of same sex relationships. Hence you have a problem of perception.

Our constitution and jurisprudence describes our state as being of "Christian and Democratic nature" and is interpeted in that light. It is most likely that a constitutional ammendment would be needed. Not sure if it would pass.

**pete** · 27/02/2004, 2:48 PM

Can't see any reason why those folks can't do what they want. Doesn't affect me so don't see why should stop others - pretty much same as pro-divorce agruments.

Theres no votes in for politicans so be surprised if saw same sex marriage in Ireland in short term although some sort of "union" could be seen in next 10 years.

I've been told Dubya only bringing up constitutional ban in the US to distract from other issues in election year. Apparently beenn 20 years since last constitutional amendment in the US & supposed to be extremely hard to get anything up for vote let alone get passed over there.

btw Churches in Ireland has ever decreasing powers & seems to be even a vote loser for politicians to even talk to them now.

**Peadar** · 27/02/2004, 3:02 PM

Originally posted by Conor74
It's not that I find transgender politics light reading for the toilet....

I'm going to start a whole other thread on this.

Staying with the subject.
If someone came to you and said "I'm a woman trapped in a mans body" would you believe them purely on their claim?
This could be similar in some ways to guilty but insane. In other words, someone with an ulterior motive may exploit it.

I think same-sex marriages could be legalised without consideration of how gender is defined.
The X and Y-chromosomes will have to satisfy that determination for now.

**yur man** · 27/02/2004, 3:55 PM

i would like to see it happen. it would prove how far ireland has come from its church state days

i agree that the church should have a say about who they marry in their churches, but the government should give gays and lesbians the benefits the rest of us take for granted

**pete** · 27/02/2004, 4:20 PM

Originally posted by Conor74
As for whether one could believe a claim of transgender or insanity, both of those have more substantiation than just mere statements by affected parties, For example, one could claim insanity, but at a trial one would have to prove that at the time of the act one could not differentiate right from wrong, which is considerably more difficult. Similarly one could claim to have the wrong biological 'shell', but there's more to it than just that, tests show that true transgenders share the physical brain characteristics as the sex to which they claim to belong...the obvious problem that you gotta crack their heads open to see if they're telling the truth then...

huh? wha?

**Peadar** · 27/02/2004, 4:22 PM

Originally posted by Conor74
How about rights to adopt?

Totally different kettle of fish.
With marriage, you will have two adults making a decision.
Where a child is concerned, each individual case would need to be assessed on its own merit. For some people, having a child would be simply to satisfy their own needs. "Oh look at me, I have a baby!" For others it's a desire to love and nurture.

On the other hand, there are some women who should never be allowed to have children but the state typically wont stop any woman from becoming pregnant and giving birth.

The adoption laws in this country need a major overhaul anyway.
I'm not against same-sex couples adopting children but what's best for the child must be a priority.

**eoinh** · 27/02/2004, 4:23 PM

no, i dont think so.

**lopez** · 27/02/2004, 4:30 PM

Quite surprised of the response here. Not trying to be smart but Ireland is not exactly Sand Francisco. It is however refreshing.

I've no objections to same sex marriages. Worked with loads of gays over the years so have long come away from any form of homophobia that I would have if I had never met any (my brother-in-law who's a builder is a good example of this still common specimen). Think that whatever you call it they should not be taken for a ride by insurance and pension companies.

**brendy_�ire** · 27/02/2004, 6:51 PM

Originally posted by pete
I've been told Dubya only bringing up constitutional ban in the US to distract from other issues in election year. Apparently beenn 20 years since last constitutional amendment in the US & supposed to be extremely hard to get anything up for vote let alone get passed over there.

Aye, it is only to grab media attention and distract peoples' attention from the economy/Iraq. It'll win votes for him too, especially from the white, protestant, middle classes. However, it's very unlikely he'd get any constitutional amendment through. He'd need a 2/3 majority in both houses of Congress, then it needs to be ratified by 3/4 of the states. Never going to happen, never minding trying to rush it through in the 6 odd months left before the election.

No problem with same-sex marriages/civil unions, however I would stop short of allowing them to adopt a child. I don't believe that same-sex couples would be any less capable of raising a child than a male/female couple, but the impact on the child must be taken into account. I don't believe it would be fair to child to allow it to be raised by a same-sex couple.

**lopez** · 27/02/2004, 7:04 PM

Originally posted by brendy_eire
Aye, it is only to grab media attention and distract peoples' attention from the economy/Iraq. It'll win votes for him too, especially from the white, protestant, middle classes.

C'mon amigo. The lines are blurred between the Bob Jones brigade and the Holy Smokes. I was watching a programme on BBC2 about the Texan Virgins. There was this unholly alliance between the BJ boys behind this hair brained scheme and the RCs (mentioned before on another thread with Davros). It's a joke. A bunch of right wing looneys burying their differences. Bit like the abortion question in the North. Christian Right?