Ireland V England Wembley '91

[davey]

I've got a love- hate relationship with the north. They were the first Irish team I remember watching ( I was 7 when Espana 82 was on and it left an indelible impression on me concerning International football - the games were incredible and NIs victory over Spain was unbelievable ).

I didn't know anything about our attempts at qualifying and how we were done out of it - My dad was a confirmed Gaelic man (How this changed after Italia 90!)

I think NIs achievements in football are incredible but like Lopez I have experienced some of the lunatic fringe who latch on to games against the "beggars". Part of me thinks "F*** em, they don't want us to win" and part of me wants them them to win.

[Duncan Gardner]

Credit where it's due, to Brendy. Embittered, yes, but brief, direct and honest. This has absolutely nothing to do with football, does it? He doesn't like anything about Northern Ireland, starting with the name. Live with it Brendy, because it ain't going away anytime soon...

Lopez, I'm genuinely puzzled by what you say. First, as we've discussed many times, the atmosphere at NI games in the 70s and 80s was much worse than now. Reflecting both the greater degree of violence and tension locally, and also bigger crowds and the wider problem of hooliganism. This wasn't really covered in the outside media, but I remember as a kid going to matches how edgy the atmosphere could be. And you haven't forgotten the death threats to George Best or the Provo bombs at Windsor, I hope.

You're indifferent to NI results? This is a joke, right? You're obsessed by them! As evidenced on this forum again and again.

But you dislike the 'Tans' more. Well, thanks very much for that. Most of the rest of us have moved on from the Anglo-Irish War, as it ended about 40 years before you and I were born, like. I'm sorry you and your friends were glassed in a Kilburn pub, but does the entire English nation have to carry a stigma for this ad infinitum?

A few years before that, I was in a pub in Wembley (the Windermere, you probably kow it) one Saturday evening just after an England- Scotland game. I'd been, but everyone else was just gathering for an engagement party. Many were completely indifferent to the match. That didn't stop my friend Janet taking a pint glass in the face when some English and Scots lads kicked it off. Do I drone about Culloden or Bannockburn as a result? No.

Moving forward to 1997, when we met on that wet and windy night in Cardiff for the 0-0 draw. Am I right in thinking that when you were thumped at that game, it was by a fellow Irish 'fan' who objected to your London accent? If so, shouldn't you consistently apply the same censure to your own team as you do to England and Northern Ireland?

By the way, though I normally support whoever you are playing, there are exceptions. Scotland and England, obviously, but as Davros will remember, also the Dutch in qualifying for WC 2002. I wasn't happy at the way they tried to get round a current drugs ban for at least one of their players. Anyone got a duster for my halo?

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez, I'm genuinely puzzled by what you say. First, as we've discussed many times, the atmosphere at NI games in the 70s and 80s was much worse than now. Reflecting both the greater degree of violence and tension locally, and also bigger crowds and the wider problem of hooliganism. This wasn't really covered in the outside media, but I remember as a kid going to matches how edgy the atmosphere could be.

Well as I never went to the games I wouldn't know either. And as you pointed out, neither was it mentioned in the media. The consensus was, right up to the decline of the NI, that it was the only place in Ireland where nationalist and unionist stood shoulder to shoulder.

The truth as you knew then, and I knew from around 1981, was different. I used to get Shoot! and there was a letter in there from a unionist kid circa 1981 who already pointed out that far from this being the case, most RC kids he knew supported the south. Blimey! Even in the days before the Republic existed as some of the dorks on ourweeminds would like to believe. My first game was in September 81 and I remember NI based supporters then. Perhaps not enough for a dozen Ulsterbus coaches that clogged the roads around Lansdowne Road at the Czech game in 94, but sufficient to tell me that something was amiss with the NI team. Dropping the NI was political. I just don't support British teams.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
And you haven't forgotten the death threats to George Best or the Provo bombs at Windsor, I hope.

You haven't forgotten about Loughinisland 94? Six people shot in the back watching the Italy v Ireland game. Doesn't get much of a mention on ourweeminds does it? 'Oh but they weren't NI fans!' Were the provos who threatened Bestie (didn't the UDA/UVF threaten him aswell? Something in the back of my mind tells me this was the case?) or planted the bombs, RoI fans. Is there a point to your statement?

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
You're indifferent to NI results? This is a joke, right? You're obsessed by them! As evidenced on this forum again and again.

You think I look up to see how Northern Ireland are doing? Take it as read DG, but I don't. I've been to one NI game in my life that didn't include the Republic. And you know the reason why I went to that particular game.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
But you dislike the 'Tans' more. Well, thanks very much for that. Most of the rest of us have moved on from the Anglo-Irish War, as it ended about 40 years before you and I were born, like.

The Anglo-Irish war has continued in a mutated form up until 1998. Perhaps, surprisingly for a proto-Marxist, you follow the British line that the Northern Ireland 'troubles' were a classic example of intra-national 'tribalism' with the poor, impartial, Tommy in the middle keeping the peace, but there are others that see this as a conflict over nationalism, exasperated by British cowardice, a botched partition and a sectarian one party muppet state financed and approved from 'the mainland'. BTW, this isn't just the SF line, but also that followed by Fine Gael and the Irish Labour Party during the conflict and led to the Anglo-Irish agreement of 1985. Difference was that the latter didn't see how blowing people up solved anything.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I'm sorry you and your friends were glassed in a Kilburn pub, but does the entire English nation have to carry a stigma for this ad infinitum?

Ahhhhh? The old anti-British line. Just when you think that DG has a brain, he reverts to type. U can take da bwoy out ov da 'hood but u can't take da 'hood out ov da bwoy? Seeing that you've read my previous posts (you tried to have them erased remember) this piece of stereotyping is not worthy of any response except this: I pay my taxes and used to pay top rate NI contributions. If you don't like what I say, then vote BNP.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
A few years before that, I was in a pub in Wembley (the Windermere, you probably kow it) one Saturday evening just after an England- Scotland game. I'd been, but everyone else was just gathering for an engagement party. Many were completely indifferent to the match. That didn't stop my friend Janet taking a pint glass in the face when some English and Scots lads kicked it off. Do I drone about Culloden or Bannockburn as a result? No.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Moving forward to 1997, when we met on that wet and windy night in Cardiff for the 0-0 draw. Am I right in thinking that when you were thumped at that game, it was by a fellow Irish 'fan' who objected to your London accent? If so, shouldn't you consistently apply the same censure to your own team as you do to England and Northern Ireland?

Well as I have previously explained, this was an altercation between two Irish fans. As I don't remember meeting you, it probably also had something to do with me being very p*ssed. So you never had a row or a punch up with one of your fellow fans? If you had one would it stop you supporting NI?

The difference between that and Kilburn is that that was a premeditated attempt to injure fans on the basis that we are all IRA supporters. Are we all IRA supporters DG? The attack was classical English hooligan cowardice. Creep up on a quite bar then blitz it from the outside. No attempt to get in though. Might pick up an injury...or damage the Stone Island.

Shame, but probably not unsurprising, that you can't see the difference here.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
By the way, though I normally support whoever you are playing, there are exceptions. Scotland and England, obviously...

Can't believe that? DG calling me anti-English and supporting his biggest rivals against the English suggests an amount of hypocrisy on your part. Why the anti-Englishness DG? Or is it just a case that it's alright to be anti-English only if you have a British passport.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
...but as Davros will remember, also the Dutch in qualifying for WC 2002. I wasn't happy at the way they tried to get round a current drugs ban for at least one of their players. Anyone got a duster for my halo?

Can we have that w*nker smilie added on here please, Adam?

[Duncan Gardner]

Mi-aooooow!

Give me until tomorrow for a full reply lads, but some excellent spleen and straw man arguments from the top-rate taxpayer there. Have you posted my BNP card with that replica shirt, then?

PS We'll probably offer it as a memento to the Depeche Mode theme bar in Tallinn. Thanks.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Mi-aooooow!

Give me until tomorrow for a full reply lads,

Should be sober by then...

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
but some excellent spleen and straw man arguments from the top-rate taxpayer there.

I know. Sadly still not part of the master race. Dole book and outside sh*tter still qualifies as a higher rung in the tan caste system if it's located in DGville.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Have you posted my BNP card with that replica shirt, then?

Now, now Dunc. You know you've got one already. Gimpsuit on the way this afternoon.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
PS We'll probably offer it as a memento to the Depeche Mode theme bar in Tallinn. Thanks.

Hmmm??? Research girl should be at home in that place. Sounds just like the pub me and Davros wanted to take him. Be gentle with him, BIG BOY!!!

[gspain]

I would find it hard to define support for any national team other than our one. However I do with Northern Ireland well when they play as with Scotland and Wales. England area different story and quite complicated.

I've been to the last 3 NI v RoI games at Windsor, the B game in Portadown in 90 and the youths qualifier at the Oval in 99. I've also seen quite a few Limerick away friendlies at places like Ballymena, Bangor and Dsitillery not to mind a Dundalk friendly away to Crusaders. I've also attedned plenty of Irish league games with the most recent being Limavady v Dungannon on the afternoon of the Derry v Limerick playoff semi final.

NI v RoI senior games do attract a lunatic fringe. I was sitting right behind some of them at the 93 game. This was grossly exaggerated by the media here. Sadly there are a minority of sectarian bigots on both sides in NI and yes they probably will turn up next time we play there. We may well have to suffer the same problem ourselves too as we also have a minority of sectarian lunatics in the Republic some of which have discovered that it is okay to watch that "foreign garrison protestant game" and support Celtic and now Ireland. I noticed a remarkable similarity between the bigot behind me at the Ireland v Denamrk game in 2002 and the one in front of me at Windsor in 93 - swop a Celtic jersey for a Rangers scarf and "dirty proddie/orange *******" for "fenian ******* taig scum" otherwise you couldn't tell them apart. The one in Dublin hurt a lot more not least because I'd arranged tickets for 16 Danish colleagues to attend.

I actually took great prid ein the fact that NI fans could come to Lansdowne and sit in the middle of our fans without any problems for the return games here. I'm not sure you could sit in the East Stand with a Union Jack now supporting NI.

NI did have cross community support in 82. At a programme fair in Belfast just before the 2002 World Cup one fan showed me a newspaper photo of himself and his mate in the crowd at the Spain game - his mate was wearing a celtic jersey. Thousands of southerners used to go to Windsor before the troubles. A couple of guys travelled from Limerick for the Ireland v England game in 1946 at Windsor and there were special trains for the game in 66 from Dublin to see the world champions.

I reckon it was the mid 80's to mid 90's that the worst of the sectarianism happened at Windsor. By all accounts it is very much a family atmosphere now and I do hope to make a game there soon.

Windsor is in a Loyalist area although it is just a short walk from the Lisburn Road which is a mixed middle class suburban/shopping area. I can see why many nationalists would be reluctant to walk thorough the Village but otherwise couldn't see a problem in going.

Other than the few bigots that come out for the big games I've found NI fans to be very freidnly and no problem at all. No issues at all at the underage games where you'd only have the real fans.

I do contribute to OWC and find them fine. I have never seen NI as rivals

Another point to remmeber is that the opposiution to an All Ireland team is not about sectarian bigotry or about getting on together. It's about identity - and just ask how you'd feel if one national team for these islands was suggested - even if they did play Amhran na Bhfiann after GSTQ.

[lopez]

All quiet on the DG front! Let's hope that Double Bhunda Madras with Pillao Rice and Vindaloo Chakha Khan hasn't waylaid him.

Everything counts (in large ammounts)!

[lopez]

Originally posted by davros
Think I'm right in saying one Irish lad passed on that day,after falling drunk onto the tube line;The urban myth?being that he was being pursued/thrown by Tan hooligans(DON'T KNOW THE EXACT CAUSE).

No one died that day by falling/being thrown on any tube around London. I worked on the Fleet Line (renamed the Jubilee line circa 1977 in honour of the 25 years of being on the rock 'n' roll of the German lady and her equally idle Greek consort) so am well informed about any incidents. A year later a Barstadolona fan almost got splattered at Baker Street when he decided to wave down a tube train a la Formula One style with a huge flag. Drink was involved and I knew the driver who nearly killed the eejit.

No doubt the lad that who was given a jolly Rogering by some sex starved mooslims in Istanbul eight months later (and regurgitated in 99 by the ooh ahh Daily Star) was equally another urban myth.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Mi-aooooow!

Give me until tomorrow for a full reply lads...

Two days gone and still no sign of DG and his 'full reply'.

[gspain]

Originally posted by lopez


No doubt the lad that who was given a jolly Rogering by some sex starved mooslims in Istanbul eight months later (and regurgitated in 99 by the ooh ahh Daily Star) was equally another urban myth.

That story did the rounds in 91 and gave us all a real fright. Hope it was an urban myth but certainly believed it at the time.

[lopez]

Originally posted by gspain
That story did the rounds in 91 and gave us all a real fright. Hope it was an urban myth but certainly believed it at the time.

I was told that story at Istanbul airport by this late middle aged lady the morning after. With news that fast, there may well be something more to the story than a line in the Daily Tarts suggests, which to me is disturbing. It's easy for us to come down hard on Turkey - I was in Alanya (flew to Antalya) in 89 for a holiday with Conchita and we giggled as we saw one lovestruck middle aged geezer drew a heart in the sand for another - but this sort of thing happens anywhere if you fall out of the wrong bar. Just before going to Denmark in 92 there was a gang rape of a bloke in Hampstead, N London.

What a pick of venues we had in that group, although Euro 2000 was worse. Even a couple of mates in Poznan kicked off with the local boneheads.

[Sheridan]

I've got mpegs of that Houghton miss (which, viewed with the equanimity afforded by the passage of a decade, wasn't all that bad) and Quinn's goal, together with some other bits and pieces, if anyone wants 'em.

[The Sheliban]

http://www.footballpoets.org/p.asp?Id=4390

As Sheridan says, perhaps it doesn't look quite as glaring on re-showing, though the least he could have done was get it on target.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Mi-aooooow!

Give me until tomorrow for a full reply lads, but some excellent spleen and straw man arguments from the top-rate taxpayer there. Have you posted my BNP card with that replica shirt, then?

Sadly DG has contacted me privately and is refusing to answer my questions. He has also sent back the gimpsuit. It transpires that he's insulted that I said he already had a membership card of the BNP. God knows what he would have done if had been called a bigot, a gimpmaster (both copyright of Research Girl) and a fascist (AndyH), like myself.

Also, he's upset by my throwing 'around public accusations about my dishonesty.' Hoping he's feeling better next week.