Jamie O'Hara

**SkStu** · 22/03/2010, 2:23 PM

"Soccer" is definitely not our national sport.

Ardrock does have a good point in his post that has been ignored in the rush to vilify him, namely:

What they in fact doing is exploiting FIFA's generous eligibility rules to pick off players from our neighbours to fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. Of course these rules are a good attribute in terms of us being able to exploit it to our advantage but they are not doing anything to truly enhance the health of Irish football. It would be nice to see them take their gaze away from nosing through family trees hunting for the next defector to poach and actually doing something positive like setting up a national academy so we are not almost entirely reliant on English clubs to nurture our players and perhaps set up some kind of half-serious national league, like the way Australia have done with their A League or the U.S whatever they call it. Ok so its never going to be a Premiership of Serie A but it would do us the world of good and be a good starting point for potential international players.

ive been saying this for years. The fact that we dont develop our own players in the professional game is to our detriment. We do not shape our own destiny as a football nation, instead we let the clubs of other associations do this from the age of 14/15. We supplement with picking off 2g players, some of dubious Irishness. Ive accepted that this wont change anytime soon but i did want to point out that Ardrock's posts shouldnt be so quickly dismissed.

**Adrock** · 22/03/2010, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by greendeiseboy

Football i.e. Soccer our National sport - come on boi will you get a grip

All Irish Rugby Squad Irish to the core - I assume you mean by that Irish born and bred -dont think so - Issac Boss, Tom Court, Brett Wilkinson all born abroad some have tentative links - and we also had the Easterby's and Simon Geoghan born and bred in England to name a few.

And for the record Jamie Heaslip was born in Israel!!!!

Bit more research Ardrock

Ok, most popular sport then, surely? Anyway thats a can of worms I'm not looking to open as it will doubtless involve getting in to discussions on GAA and life's too short.
I'm talking about our present national rugby squad (not A team players or ex-internationals) I didn't know Heaslip was born in Israel, but I doubt he grew up and learned his rugby there. If your parents happen to be stationed overseas when you were born isn't quite the same as the situations debated over the previous however many posts.

**third policeman** · 22/03/2010, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by SkStu

"ive been saying this for years. The fact that we dont develop our own players in the professional game is to our detriment. We do not shape our own destiny as a football nation, instead we let the clubs of other associations do this from the age of 14/15. We supplement with picking off 2g players, some of dubious Irishness. Ive accepted that this wont change anytime soon but i did want to point out that Ardrock's posts shouldnt be so quickly dismissed.

Totally agree, but as has been argued here countless times developing the potential of homegrown players in a viable professional structure would require very radical restructuring of the domestic game - at the very very least an All Ireland League of no more than 10 clubs or more probably a Celtic League type proposition. Irish players can still earn more money playing in League 2 or maybe even the Second tier of Scottish football than they can in the EL. We have too many clubs and too few people to support our current clubs. Of course it is fixable and if the aim is to improve standards, attract more supporters and build a viable domestic socer product, decisive action would have been taken years ago, but we are being held to ransom by the EL brigade who quite honestly display similar tribal small mindedness to the NI refusniks on OWC.

THere are probably more than 150 Irish players (Ni and ROI) playing at Premiership, Championship and SPL clubs. We could easily support six / eight decent quality professional clubs with sustainable support base and that would be a massive boost to the international team(s) as well.

**Yard of Pace** · 22/03/2010, 2:55 PM

Similar situation to O'Hara here:
Lucas Barrios, an Argentinian who plays for Dortmund and who's mother is from Paraguay.

Diego Maradona has proclaimed a distinct lack of interest in the predatory talents of "La Pantera" (the Panther), yet Barrios could still make it to the World Cup. His mum hails from Paraguay and he has a firm offer to play for them in June. "I will think about it," he said.

And that's an offer of a trip to the World Cup!

**SkStu** · 22/03/2010, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by third policeman

Totally agree, but as has been argued here countless times developing the potential of homegrown players in a viable professional structure would require very radical restructuring of the domestic game - at the very very least an All Ireland League of no more than 10 clubs or more probably a Celtic League type proposition. Irish players can still earn more money playing in League 2 or maybe even the Second tier of Scottish football than they can in the EL. We have too many clubs and too few people to support our current clubs. Of course it is fixable and if the aim is to improve standards, attract more supporters and build a viable domestic socer product, decisive action would have been taken years ago, but we are being held to ransom by the EL brigade who quite honestly display similar tribal small mindedness to the NI refusniks on OWC.

THere are probably more than 150 Irish players (Ni and ROI) playing at Premiership, Championship and SPL clubs. We could easily support six / eight decent quality professional clubs with sustainable support base and that would be a massive boost to the international team(s) as well.

id have to disagree with your assertion that it is the fault of the "EL brigade" (eircom are gone by the way). In my opinion, it is the influence and inflexibility of the nursery/schoolboy clubs and the indifference of the FAI where the blame truly lies. Although there undoubtedly are too many clubs in Dublin, there is no reason why the current clubs in the LOI cannot achieve what we both agree is a good thing. There is no good reason to get rid of clubs that were regularly attracting crowds of 20000 punters 30 or 40 years ago and who have over 100 years of history and tradition and who are making great strides on (if not off) the pitch as our Euro results show. There is just a disconnect between football at all levels in this country that the FAI seems incapable of bridging.

**third policeman** · 22/03/2010, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by SkStu

id have to disagree with your assertion that it is the fault of the "EL brigade" (eircom are gone by the way). In my opinion, it is the influence and inflexibility of the nursery/schoolboy clubs and the indifference of the FAI where the blame truly lies. Although there undoubtedly are too many clubs in Dublin, there is no reason why the current clubs in the LOI cannot achieve what we both agree is a good thing. There is no good reason to get rid of clubs that were regularly attracting crowds of 20000 punters 30 or 40 years ago and who have over 100 years of history and tradition and who are making great strides on (if not off) the pitch as our Euro results show. There is just a disconnect between football at all levels in this country that the FAI seems incapable of bridging.

Maybe, but its difficult to see how the situation will change with LOL without structural change. It's a bit of a catch 22. THe clubs need more revenue to hold on to better players to improve standards, but the players need an incentive to stay and the punters want a better quality product before they are likely to come and watch. The situation 40 years ago was very different, there was effectively no competition. Today EPL and Cl games are on the telly and its a lot easier and more affordable to get over to the UK to follow teams there. Of course we have to respect tradition, but simple economics will dictate the future of LOL clubs not sentiment.

**TrapAPony** · 22/03/2010, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

Similar situation to O'Hara here:
Lucas Barrios, an Argentinian who plays for Dortmund and who's mother is from Paraguay.

And that's an offer of a trip to the World Cup!

Ya, they already have two Argentinian's in their current squad ie. Jonathan Santana (Wolfsburg) & Nestor Ortigoza (Argentinos Juniors) although one of their parents are Paraguayan. Seem him a few times for Borussia Dortmund, he's a decent striker & should go for it.

**SkStu** · 22/03/2010, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by third policeman

Maybe, but its difficult to see how the situation will change with LOL without structural change. It's a bit of a catch 22. THe clubs need more revenue to hold on to better players to improve standards, but the players need an incentive to stay and the punters want a better quality product before they are likely to come and watch. The situation 40 years ago was very different, there was effectively no competition. Today EPL and Cl games are on the telly and its a lot easier and more affordable to get over to the UK to follow teams there. Of course we have to respect tradition, but simple economics will dictate the future of LOL clubs not sentiment.

i think the fact that you continue to refer to it as LOL shows what the domestic game is up against.

Against my better judgement ill entertain you as a serious poster - my point is not that we should hold on to players in the League. With the competition you mention we should aim to be a selling league - like the better Scandinavian leagues. What we should do, and this is where it entails the co-operation of the nurseries and the FAI, is to ensure that our young players do not get shipped out to British teams as young as 14 or 15 and instead get filtered through local development centres (by local coaches with emphasis on technique instead of win at all costs), into LOI teams where they learn the game and are then sold on for decent fees (then the cycle of facility development-good players-good crowds-euro success can truly begin). The best of the best young players can still move across, i have no problem with that but the way the system works now does not serve our youngest players or the international team well. Our players are coached by British coaches, the British way. It would be nice if we could coach players our own way and stop milking off the FA and the SFA. As i said in my original post, ive accepted that im ****ing against the wind here and that there is no real desire for change from anyone except some LOI fans. What im trying to present is a logical case that shows how football in this country at ALL levels could improve.

Also, you said "its a lot easier and more affordable to get over to the UK to follow teams there". Thats just not true.

**Gather round** · 22/03/2010, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by SkStu

iAlso, you said "its a lot easier and more affordable to get over to the UK to follow teams there". Thats just not true

I think TP means it's easier to get to Britain than it was (before no-frills air travel), not that Britain is easier to reach than your nearest LoI ground.

**Straightstory** · 23/03/2010, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by SkStu

There is no good reason to get rid of clubs that were regularly attracting crowds of 20000 punters 30 or 40 years ago

I'm following League of I football for almost forty years, and this '20,000 regular crowds' thing is a myth. The main difference I see is that domestic football used to have a much higher profile in the media. Columnists like Con Houlihan would regularly write about the domestic game. Have you ever read anything about the League from the likes of, for example, Tom Humphries or Keith Duggan in the Irish Times? Dublin is a major European capital, and it's bigger clubs (we can discount the likes of Sporting Fingal and UCD) SHOULD be able to attract at least 10,000 regularly. The reason they don't is that, as far as I can see, Irish sports fans people are, as has been often mentioned here, mostly event junkies. They like the 'big occasion'. They cannot see that if they supported their own clubs, that would make them more successful. It's a simple failure of imagination. There is nothing the clubs can do about this. The only thing which might stir the public is qualification for the Champions League Group stages or, possibly (I'm not as sure about this), the Europa League.
I agree with the rest of your post. The achievements of Irish clubs in recent years, and their huge movement up in the European rankings, considering their lack of support from the public, is astonishing.

**Straightstory** · 23/03/2010, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by TrapAPony

Ya it's well behind Rugby & GAA.

You seem to be discounting the countless Liverpool, Man U. Arsenal, Chelsea, Celtic etc. etc fans in Ireland. Yes, they follow the game from a barstool, but we have to count them nonetheless.

**shakermaker1982** · 23/03/2010, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by greendeiseboy

Football i.e. Soccer our National sport - come on boi will you get a grip

All Irish Rugby Squad Irish to the core - I assume you mean by that Irish born and bred -dont think so - Issac Boss, Tom Court, Brett Wilkinson all born abroad some have tentative links - and we also had the Easterby's and Simon Geoghan born and bred in England to name a few.

And for the record Jamie Heaslip was born in Israel!!!!

Bit more research Ardrock

O'Gara was born in San Diego as well!!

**greendeiseboy** · 23/03/2010, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

O'Gara was born in San Diego as well!!

Yip, now that explains why the Yanks are up in arms about him declaring for us with their online campaigns and booing him every time he takes a penalty when we play against them and why the American troops returning from Iraq on the Shannon stopover are regularly protesting there about him declaring for us.

**Paddy Garcia** · 23/03/2010, 8:19 PM

I thought I'd take a look at this thread to see if there was an update on possible additions to the squad. Should have known better!

**SilkCut** · 23/03/2010, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Adrock

Yes, intellectual giants all of you...............

Well living in Ireland and not the other side of the world I dont know the exact merits of Australian football but at least they have a professional structure in place the offers a starting point for potential international quality players. Much like Norway, sure most their first choice players are usually based abroad but they all made their mark first in Norway's league. We have a similar population and , unlike Australia where your soccer is a minority sport, football is our national sport(please don't mention gaelic) so having a reasonably serious national league like most European countries manage, should be realistic. Look at Irish rugby - much less popular sport but they have the right structure in place and the results at club and international level to back it up, and every one of the Ireland team is Irish to the core. Maybe a Celtic super league with teams from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland could be an option, I'm sure FIFA wouldn't stand in the way.

Something we agree on and if you check my post history something you will see I have been boring the arse off people with for some time.

The A-league is semi - pro same as the LOI, most of the better Aussie players have never played in the A-League and few played in the old NSL, much like Irish players they leave for England in thier mid to late teens. Kewell, Viduka, Emerton, Cahill, Schwarzer,Moore all left when they were kids and the trend is continuing, in fact it has worsened with Verbeek saying he will pick players who are merely TRAINING with a team in a European league before he will pick an A-League player for a WC squad or even an important WC qualifier. Much the same as we will not pick a regular LOI player ahead of Liam Miller even when he did not have a club. Please don't use the A-League as an example of what we should aspire to be. Also Football is not the minority sport over here, Rugby union currently is, the popularity of all codes except AFL varies from season to season depending on what events are on. Football is huge right now because of the WC.

**dr_peepee** · 12/04/2010, 10:46 AM

O'Hara was on Soccer AM on Sat. No mention of the Irish team or even a choice afforded to him. Is very comitted to playing for England from what I saw. It was all about impressing Fabio, Tweeting comments like "The sun team of the week again, are you watching Fabio", commenting on the current midfeilders age and future oppertunities etc. So we can put that to bed...

I wonder how Gary Cahill is doing??

**Serb** · 12/04/2010, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by dr_peepee

Is very comitted to playing for England from what I saw. It was all about impressing Fabio, Tweeting comments like "The sun team of the week again, are you watching Fabio", commenting on the current midfeilders age and future oppertunities etc. So we can put that to bed...

Didn't see him mention other midfielders, but he does have the following two tweets on Twitter:

28th February, MrJamieOHara
another team of the week, any chance fabio i can play anywhere u want lol

5th April, MrJamieOHara
The sun team of week again, what more can I do fabio lol

**Yard of Pace** · 12/04/2010, 12:06 PM

Will he make the England team though? I can't see it, to be honest. And I think when September rolls around and he hasn't been picked at all, he'll come and play for us.

**Predator** · 12/04/2010, 12:09 PM

Is it just me or do O'Hara's virtual pleas to Capello seem...desperate?

**Wolfie** · 12/04/2010, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Predator

Is it just me or do O'Hara's virtual pleas to Capello seem...desperate?

This hedging of bets scenario in such a public manner is farcical.

We should not pick him at this stage - as I think it creates a damaging precedent for us for a variety of reasons.