QuoteBetter not to get worked up about it tbh. Players wouldn't be around for off season but writers culd all vte by e-mail nowOriginally Posted by Colbert Report
Yes
No
Surely it would be better to wait until the season is over before any votes are cast.
Better not to get worked up about it tbh. Players wouldn't be around for off season but writers culd all vte by e-mail now
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
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New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
O'Hara doesnt sit easy with me.
1) Hunch says he doesnt feel "English AND Irish" at all. Its more that FIFA say he is elegible for both - There is a big difference.
2) Perhaps Im being blinkered and ideolistic but I want our 2g or 3g players to be a Kilbane or a Breen or a McGeady or McCarthy who show nothing but 100% commitment to the green shirt, the same way the 2g and 3g fans do on the terraces.
3) Whether he makes our squad better or our chances of qualifying greater has no relevence for me
4) Yes - Ill admit it, pictures of him with the three lions definitely taint his image, something I would never be able to get out of my head.
Im sure if he was playing in the Green I would forget about all these issues as you do in a game - Id just rather he stuck to his first choice and we let him be.
I thought you were off the drink Ronnie?
"No, I drink to help me mind my own business....can I get you one? (c) Ronnie Drew
Is it just the fact that his first choice appears to be England in particular that is supposedly tainting his worth to Ireland, or would it matter what country he was born in? Would people exhibit a similar unease with a player like Barry Maguire declaring for us after having already rejected a call-up to our youth side or would his particular "national make-up" be much more palatable that he'd be welcomed into the squad without question?
Just xenophobic isn't it not wanting foreigners in your national football team.
I for one don't have anything against English at all and don't know anyone that does, except these 2G and 3G Micks carrying some ancestral chip on their shoulder. I'd just prefer not to have them in the Ireland football team, same as I'd rather not have any Dutch, German, Brazilian, Angolan or Cambodian players for example. Doesn't mean I have anything against these nationalities, but this is international football, not club football so its not exactly appropriate is it.
The fact is the whole granny rule thing is a loophole that's been exploited by the FAI for so long, its basically came to define our national team. The new FIFA regulations allowing us to cap players who've represented England as their team of choice already just makes it more hard to swallow. I dont buy this whole argument about 'well we're a small country so we've got to look as wide as possible for eligible players'. Look at other countires with small populations like Denmark, Croatia, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia. How many of their squad do you think were born and raised in another country? Outside the British Isles there's probably about four players in the whole of Europe who qualify through a grandparent, yet you look at our youth squad for instance and maybe half of them only qualify on that basis. Doesn't give you much national pride.......
I sense your sarcasm but, as Charlie Darwin pointed out, it would appear that some people see it as an issue of contention that Steve Finnan might consider himself remotely English as well as Irish, as if the English adage would bring with it some form of stigma. I'm not accusing you of xenophobia. You've justified your conviction perfectly well, although I would disagree with your description of the "granny rule" as a "loophole". It's long been an accepted part of FIFA's rules. There's nothing "loophole" about it and it's not as if the FAI are the only ones "exploiting" it, although I think legitimately utilising it would be a more accurate description under current circumstances.Just xenophobic isn't it not wanting foreigners in your national football team.
I don't think it has come to define our national team. That's proven to be a myth in recent years, and one that originates in anti-Irishness and insecure self-loathing anyway. Maybe we should have a look at our own national insecurities and elitist/purist posturing before accusing others of being "plastic". Who are we to tell them if they're "Irish enough" or not?
If those countries you mention had histories of mass emigration like Ireland and a significant diaspora to match with such a proudly-preserved and inherited national consciousness, maybe your point would stand?* We should be proud that we have a diaspora that is similarly proud in return and strives to maintain such a strong bond with us. It's something we should cherish as a nation and, to be honest, this casual, smug condescension and throwing about of slurs like "plastic Paddy" from some sort of "mantlepiece of true Irishness" somewhat disgusts me. I would argue that looking at the experience of former colonies such as Algeria is more apt as their situation is more analogous to our one. I'm sure they're very proud as a nation to have qualified for the World Cup, albeit with a squad significantly made up of French-born Algerians.
*As an aside, doesn't Eduardo, a born-and-bred Brazilian, play for Croatia through naturalisation despite having no ancestral link to the place at all?
on Eduardo, yes - naturalised through residency.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
Top, top post. To quote Wilde to Whistler, "I wish I'd said that." It's interesting living in the UK how the 2nd G myth is still perpetrated, even at a time when the English cricket team is populated by South African rejects and the odd Irishman.
Fantastic post
JERRY: But are you still master of your domain?
GEORGE: I am king of the county. You?
JERRY: Lord of the manor.
Below is a list of foreign born players who were named in their national squads for Euro 2008.
Croatia
Josip Šimunić - Australia
Robert Kovač - Germany
Niko Kovač - Germany
Ivan Klasnić - Germany
Ivan Rakitić - Switzerland
Vedran Ćorluka - Bosnia
Mladen Petrić - Bosnia
Eduardo was injured- Brazil
France
Jean-Alain Boumsong - Cameroon
Florent Malouda - French Guiana
Lilian Thuram - Guadeloupe
Steve Mandanda - DR Congo
Claude Makll - DR Congo
Patrice Evra - Senegal
Patrick Vieira - Senegal
Germany
Kevin Kurnyi - Brazil
Miroslav Klose - Poland
Piotr Trochowski - Poland
Lukas Podolski - Poland
Oliver Neuville - Switzerland
Also there now:
Cacau - Brazil
Jerome Boateng - Ghanaian/German (Uncle played for Ghana & brother Kevin-Prince Boateng of Portsmouth is about to switch to Ghana despite playing 6 U-21 games for Germany. Ghana & Germany are in the same World Cup group.)
Mesut zil - Turkish parents
Portugal
Pepe - Brazil
Deco - Brazil
Nani - Cape Verde
Jos Bosingwa - DR Congo
Petit - France
Also there now:
Liedson - Brazil
Rolando - Cape Verde
Switzerland
Gelson Fernandes - Cape Verde
Johan Vonlanthen - Colombia
Johan Djourou - Cote d'Ivoire
Valon Behrami - Kosovo
Eldin Jakupović - Bosnia (Played U-21 for Bosnia & received a senior call for Bosnia but didn't play)
Also there now :
Blaise Nkufo - DR Congo
Hakan Yakin - Turkish Parents
Eren Derdiyok - Turkish Parents
Gkhan Inler - Turkish Parents
Turkey
Mehmet Aurlio - Brazil
Colin Kazim-Richards - England
Mevlt Erdin - France
Hakan Balta - Germany
Hamit Altintop - Germany
Halil Altintop - Germany
Also there now :
Nuri Şahin - Germany
Austria
Ronald Graliu - Albania
Ivica Vastić - Croatia
Martin Harnik - Germany
Gyrgy Garics - Hungary
Also there now:
Ekrem Dağ - Turkey
Yasin Pehlivan - Turkish Parents
Veli Kavlak - Turkish Parents
mit Korkmaz - Turkish Parents
David Alaba - Nigerian Father/Filipino Mother
Italy
Mauro Camoranesi - Argentina (a Trapattoni acquisition)
Simone Perrotta - England
Spain
Marcos Senna - Brazil
Poland
Roger Guerreiro - Brazil
Also there now :
Ludovic Obraniak - France (He also played U-21 for France)
Greece
Loukas Vyntra - Czech Republic
Don't see how it hurted team morale or 'national pride' for any of those nations. Case closed.
Last edited by TrapAPony; 18/03/2010 at 7:41 PM.
"We lost because we didn't win"- Ronaldo
Good post Trap, it shows the changing world we live in -- where you're born doesn't necessarily define you, and we're hardly the worst when it comes to "exploiting" the granny rule.
As for DannyInvincible's post, I don't think it was necessarily that Adrock was attacking the "proud diaspora," but rather, he was, if I am correct, implying that O'Hara, by playing for England at U-21 level, is not a proud member of the diaspora.
Now I know for a fact, being a dual-citizen, that people can love two countries, because I do. I would love to represent Ireland, or Canada. If that makes me any less Irish or Canadian, then so be it. I couldn't care less what anybody thinks of that.
If I were a top player, Ireland would be my first choice, but if I wasn't good enough, I would proudly play for Canada. I can't criticize O'Hara if he takes a similar position.
Thanks. I don't think people are even aware that many of the top nations are at it big time.
Last edited by TrapAPony; 18/03/2010 at 3:29 PM.
"We lost because we didn't win"- Ronaldo
Not quite..........
Well most of the players mentioned above - all the French ones for instance - come in the Steve Finnan category born one country, raised in another and are not relevant to my point. I would have no problem with Sean St Ledger's grandad playing for Ireland after he'd moved to England, but his grandson to do so is somewhat more dubious. I'm sure in the future as more immigrants come to the Emerald Isle we will have a few players of our own in this bracket. Lets face it the France national team would be in a pretty sorry state if it didn't select players of immigrant origins.
Most of the remaining ones are more your Kevin Kilbane types, both parents from country they are representing, never represented another country. As I've said a couple of these in your squad isn't really an issue.
That leaves one or two only qualified through the good ol granny rule. Camoranesi is not Italian and I know a lot of Italians had problems with him playing for them. He has at least lived there several years and not played for Argentina at any level that I'm aware.
Then there's Obraniak who is not Polish in any respect and doubtless never gave a thought to his Polishness had he not happened to become a footballer not good enough for his own country, but good enough for his grandparent's country. Should he be playing for them? No ,of course not and if I were on a Polish football forum I'd be arguing this in lots of consenants. Poland have no track record of exploiting this rule though and he is a drop in the ocean compared to the legions of players the ROI have recruited this way.
In any case to say all federations are playing the same game as the FAI doesn't exactly hold water.
I just don't believe in this racial heritage stuff. Travelling the world has shown me an Albanian brought up in the U.S.A for instance is a yank and an American with an Albanian granny visiting Albania isn't gonna feel any more at home than me
As it happens I've a scottish grandparent. But do I go out prancing around in a ginger wig and a skirt when Scotland are losing their latest world cup qualifier?
However if I happened to be a footballer and my dazzling ball skills were for some reason being ignored by Trap and I was coveted by the SFA (seeking revenge for Houghton, Mcgeady etc) I might just swallow my pride and pull on a blue shirt and then I might just even pretend I always felt a bit Scotch to the media so they didn't give me a hard time about it. Isn't it great to be part of the 'diaspora' - really improves your options in life!
And I don't believe in limbo.
Neither limbo nor racial heritage have any relevance to national identity or acquired nationality.
Where do you start with a post like this ? I'm not sure which is scarier, your views or the amount of effort which has gone into espousing them.Not quite..........
Well most of the players mentioned above - all the French ones for instance - come in the Steve Finnan category born one country, raised in another and are not relevant to my point. I would have no problem with Sean St Ledger's grandad playing for Ireland after he'd moved to England, but his grandson to do so is somewhat more dubious. I'm sure in the future as more immigrants come to the Emerald Isle we will have a few players of our own in this bracket. Lets face it the France national team would be in a pretty sorry state if it didn't select players of immigrant origins.
Most of the remaining ones are more your Kevin Kilbane types, both parents from country they are representing, never represented another country. As I've said a couple of these in your squad isn't really an issue.
That leaves one or two only qualified through the good ol granny rule. Camoranesi is not Italian and I know a lot of Italians had problems with him playing for them. He has at least lived there several years and not played for Argentina at any level that I'm aware.
Then there's Obraniak who is not Polish in any respect and doubtless never gave a thought to his Polishness had he not happened to become a footballer not good enough for his own country, but good enough for his grandparent's country. Should he be playing for them? No ,of course not and if I were on a Polish football forum I'd be arguing this in lots of consenants. Poland have no track record of exploiting this rule though and he is a drop in the ocean compared to the legions of players the ROI have recruited this way.
In any case to say all federations are playing the same game as the FAI doesn't exactly hold water.
I just don't believe in this racial heritage stuff. Travelling the world has shown me an Albanian brought up in the U.S.A for instance is a yank and an American with an Albanian granny visiting Albania isn't gonna feel any more at home than me
As it happens I've a scottish grandparent. But do I go out prancing around in a ginger wig and a skirt when Scotland are losing their latest world cup qualifier?
However if I happened to be a footballer and my dazzling ball skills were for some reason being ignored by Trap and I was coveted by the SFA (seeking revenge for Houghton, Mcgeady etc) I might just swallow my pride and pull on a blue shirt and then I might just even pretend I always felt a bit Scotch to the media so they didn't give me a hard time about it. Isn't it great to be part of the 'diaspora' - really improves your options in life!
Firstly explain how all of the French players fall into the "Steve Finnan category" They were all born outside of France and raised to differing extents in France. Finnan is the reverse I believe. The dynamic is very different I would think.
Its great that you think its ok to have a couple of Kevin Kilbanes in our squad. Thanks
Your remark about the US Albanian betrays such a lack of knowledge of emigrant culture in the US. You mentioned in a previous post that it was possible to be English and Irish. So its not possible to be American and Albanian ? It is patently obvious that the US wasn't covered when you "travelled the world"
The adjective Scotch is used for pies, whisky and a junction on the A1 - never people. Your Grandad/ma never told you that ?? Its loathed by all Scottish people, in fact its one of the quickest way to start a fight here.
The use of the word diaspora in quotation marks - is this because you don't believe it exists? I'm unsure why you felt the need to use them. Please clarify if you can.
Last edited by davey; 18/03/2010 at 10:21 PM. Reason: spelling
JERRY: But are you still master of your domain?
GEORGE: I am king of the county. You?
JERRY: Lord of the manor.
and eggs.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
Firstly all you have done is tell us about you and what you would do and how you would feel (this is fine, it is a forum and its here for us to put our opinions on), how would you know how these 2nd and 3rd gen players feel about their roots? You say that travelling the world has shown you that 3rd gen people don't have any feelings for the home of their grandparents, I would beg to differ. I have lived in many countries (by lived I mean more than a year) and everywhere I go I meet people who are in fact more attached to their ancesteral home than they are to the country of their birth. My boss was born and bred in Sydney yet considers himself Macedonian because of his nan, every Greek person you will meet in Melbourne will tell you they are in fact Greek, even though they may have been born and bred here. From an Irish point of view, everywhere I have lived has had an Irish community many of whom are 2nd 3rd even 4th gen and all feel as Irish as I do.Not quite..........
I just don't believe in this racial heritage stuff. Travelling the world has shown me an Albanian brought up in the U.S.A for instance is a yank and an American with an Albanian granny visiting Albania isn't gonna feel any more at home than me
As it happens I've a scottish grandparent. But do I go out prancing around in a ginger wig and a skirt when Scotland are losing their latest world cup qualifier?
However if I happened to be a footballer and my dazzling ball skills were for some reason being ignored by Trap and I was coveted by the SFA (seeking revenge for Houghton, Mcgeady etc) I might just swallow my pride and pull on a blue shirt and then I might just even pretend I always felt a bit Scotch to the media so they didn't give me a hard time about it. Isn't it great to be part of the 'diaspora' - really improves your options in life!
So Adrock you are absolutely entitled to have and voice your opinion but please don't believe it to be fact.
Help something bit me!!!
Damn, theres probably something else too
JERRY: But are you still master of your domain?
GEORGE: I am king of the county. You?
JERRY: Lord of the manor.
Broth.Damn, theres probably something else too
PP
Semper in faecibus sole profundum variat
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