Jamie O'Hara

[Adrock]

Where do you start with a post like this ? I'm not sure which is scarier, your views or the amount of effort which has gone into espousing them.

Firstly explain how all of the French players fall into the "Steve Finnan category" They were all born outside of France and raised to differing extents in France. Finnan is the reverse I believe. The dynamic is very different I would think.

Its great that you think its ok to have a couple of Kevin Kilbanes in our squad. Thanks

Your remark about the US Albanian betrays such a lack of knowledge of emigrant culture in the US. You mentioned in a previous post that it was possible to be English and Irish. So its not possible to be American and Albanian ? It is patently obvious that the US wasn't covered when you "travelled the world"

The adjective Scotch is used for pies, whisky and a junction on the A1 - never people. Your Grandad/ma never told you that ?? Its loathed by all Scottish people, in fact its one of the quickest way to start a fight here.

The use of the word diaspora in quotation marks - is this because you don't believe it exists? I'm unsure why you felt the need to use them. Please clarify if you can.

Really, quicker than taunting them about Mcgeady and Mccarthy? I think Scotch is actually loved by them and is probably a major reason they are inclined to start fights quickly about trivial stuff
Glad my gran escaped anyway.......

You're right though of course, I don't doubt for a single moment that those great Albanian actors John and James Belushi grew up passionately supporting the Albanian football team. Or perhaps they just accepted that that was where their pregenitors happened to originate from

If you'd read my previous posts I'm sure you'll have noticed my mentioning Steven Finnan as being entitled to represent either Ireland or England on account of being born in one, brought up in another. This can of course work both ways. Are you suggesting that nationality should only be a racial issue and African born players brought up in France aren't at all French entitled to represent them? That stance is a little bit racist, perhaps even scary isn't it?
People seem to be offended by suggesting Finnan has as much right to represent England and Ireland, perhaps having not actually known he was brought up there. Do you think when he retires he's going to settle down with his family back in the old country? The fact that he took the non-league route in to professional football meant England representative honours weren't likely on the agenda so it never became an issue, or maybe he still sees himself as Irish which he is entitled to of course.

Regarding the diaspora, of course a lot of Irish emigrated due to economic imperatives in the past, but the potato famine's a long time gone. If you want to move abroad fine, I'm often tempted to myself, and of course having done so you naturally go on supporting the team you grew up cheering for , but if you then marry a local girl and eventually have grandkids who sixty years later still imagine they are Irish like their granddaddy, this would seem to be a sign of severe social maladjustment rather than pride. Are there really people on this board in this situation? You have my pity...........

[Adrock]

Firstly all you have done is tell us about you and what you would do and how you would feel (this is fine, it is a forum and its here for us to put our opinions on), how would you know how these 2nd and 3rd gen players feel about their roots? You say that travelling the world has shown you that 3rd gen people don't have any feelings for the home of their grandparents, I would beg to differ. I have lived in many countries (by lived I mean more than a year) and everywhere I go I meet people who are in fact more attached to their ancesteral home than they are to the country of their birth. My boss was born and bred in Sydney yet considers himself Macedonian because of his nan, every Greek person you will meet in Melbourne will tell you they are in fact Greek, even though they may have been born and bred here. From an Irish point of view, everywhere I have lived has had an Irish community many of whom are 2nd 3rd even 4th gen and all feel as Irish as I do.
So Adrock you are absolutely entitled to have and voice your opinion but please don't believe it to be fact.

Can't even be bothered with this one. Saying a 3rd Gen or 4th Gen (must've been doing a bit of family tree scanning there, maybe they could get a job at the FAI) is not Irish/Macedonian etc isn't really a matter of opinion though its more of a truism......and you can tell your boss I said that!

[Gnobe]

Are you suggesting that nationality should only be a racial issue and African born players brought up in France aren't at all French entitled to represent them? That stance is a little bit racist, perhaps even scary isn't it?

Er NO ONE has said that nationality should be based on 'race' alone. I think most people are saying its one of many factors that could be accepted as being Irish. Most of us are fairly flexible about this to be honest with you. Whether they are born and brought up in Ireland to foreign immigrants, born and brought up abroad to parents from Ireland, or even living here for a short period of time, born elsewhere but grown up to school here etc. It's all good, as long as you can get the bloody passport. All passports are the same there's no one more passport that is more irish than the other.

[cavan_fan]

I like Trap's mail and it shows a good bit of research but let's make sure we are comparing apples with apples. There's a few people on the list (e.g. Yakin) who were born in the country they play for but have parents from another country. That's not what we are looking at is it?

Anyway we have a fairly simple set. The irish players in question were:
Not born on the island of Ireland (dont lets get into Gibson)
Usually born in Britain to parents or more rarely grandparents who were born in Ireland.
Importantly, I think, they have never lived in Ireland. This is mostly due to the 'weakness' of our league but it means our players are different from e.g. Vieira.

In fact I think there are few of the players on Trap's list in this category. I personally believe that O'Hara is 'more' eligible for Ireland than Eduardo is for Croatia but I know some people would say 'at least eduardo has lived in Croatia'.

[davey]

You're right though of course, I don't doubt for a single moment that those great Albanian actors John and James Belushi grew up passionately supporting the Albanian football team. Or perhaps they just accepted that that was where their pregenitors happened to originate from

If you'd read my previous posts I'm sure you'll have noticed my mentioning Steven Finnan as being entitled to represent either Ireland or England on account of being born in one, brought up in another. This can of course work both ways. Are you suggesting that nationality should only be a racial issue and African born players brought up in France aren't at all French entitled to represent them? That stance is a little bit racist, perhaps even scary isn't it?
People seem to be offended by suggesting Finnan has as much right to represent England and Ireland, perhaps having not actually known he was brought up there. Do you think when he retires he's going to settle down with his family back in the old country? The fact that he took the non-league route in to professional football meant England representative honours weren't likely on the agenda so it never became an issue, or maybe he still sees himself as Irish which he is entitled to of course.

Regarding the diaspora, of course a lot of Irish emigrated due to economic imperatives in the past, but the potato famine's a long time gone. If you want to move abroad fine, I'm often tempted to myself, and of course having done so you naturally go on supporting the team you grew up cheering for , but if you then marry a local girl and eventually have grandkids who sixty years later still imagine they are Irish like their granddaddy, this would seem to be a sign of severe social maladjustment rather than pride. Are there really people on this board in this situation? You have my pity...........

Steve Finnan, eligible for England Are his parents English ? Seriously a genuine question. Being brought up in England would not make him eligible for England I wouldn't have thought.

Not a sliver of a suggestion in my post to suggest that I believed nationality to be a racial issue - very cheap shot. If anything your post brought to mind that well known Conservative liberal Norman Tebbit. He was outraged that children of parents from the Indian subcontinent would choose to support India or Pakistan at Cricket over England. He must have thought they were severely socially maladjusted Having being brought up in a racially diverse part of Birmingham, I knew hundreds of severely socially maladjusted kids who wore Indian or Pakistani Cricket tops.

Your Belushi "point" is laughable. As if football was the only reference point for peoples identity. Have no knowledge of the brothers background but language, food, music etc are probably more valid expressions of identity than football. Please see the whole of American Popular culture for reference points.

Diaspora - potato famine? - wtf I cannot believe that I have to enlighten an Irishman/woman that emigration from Ireland continues right up to the present day. The 50s/60s saw a huge amount of emigration to the UK.

[Charlie Darwin]

Finnan would be have been eligible as he had lived in England for five years as an adult before playing for Ireland, at least under the current rules.

[geysir]

I cannot believe that I have to enlighten an Irishman/woman that emigration from Ireland continues right up to the present day. The 50s/60s saw a huge amount of emigration to the UK.

They would be the Paddies. The Micks came in the 70´s

[davey]

They would be the Paddies. The Micks came in the 70´s

That would be right. My dad was a Paddy, I'm a Mick as I came over in 74. Plastic Mick isn't alliterative though. Metal Mickey ??

That 5 year rule is recent though right ? Was Finnan eligible 10 years ago? If we were considered a "home" country does the gentlemans agreement between them still apply. I'm thinking principally of Ryan Giggs who obviously feels Welsh and English according to Adrocks take on Nationality.

[geysir]

That would be right. My dad was a Paddy, I'm a Mick as I came over in 74. Plastic Mick isn't alliterative though. Metal Mickey ??

Can also be confusing, I remember one English guy on a building site when he referred to me as Paddy. I said " I´m not a Paddy I´m a Mick, see him over there - he's a Paddy"
"But his name is Mick".
So I had to explain that Mick may not necessarily be a Mick but a Paddy.

that 5 year rule is recent though right ?

No it dates back some decades.
After a 5 year residency you could embark on a process of naturalisation, if you could swallow (but not necessarily digest) the oath of allegiance.

[Adrock]

Steve Finnan, eligible for England Are his parents English ? Seriously a genuine question. Being brought up in England would not make him eligible for England I wouldn't have thought.

Not a sliver of a suggestion in my post to suggest that I believed nationality to be a racial issue - very cheap shot. If anything your post brought to mind that well known Conservative liberal Norman Tebbit. He was outraged that children of parents from the Indian subcontinent would choose to support India or Pakistan at Cricket over England. He must have thought they were severely socially maladjusted Having being brought up in a racially diverse part of Birmingham, I knew hundreds of severely socially maladjusted kids who wore Indian or Pakistani Cricket tops.

Your Belushi "point" is laughable. As if football was the only reference point for peoples identity. Have no knowledge of the brothers background but language, food, music etc are probably more valid expressions of identity than football. Please see the whole of American Popular culture for reference points.

Diaspora - potato famine? - wtf I cannot believe that I have to enlighten an Irishman/woman that emigration from Ireland continues right up to the present day. The 50s/60s saw a huge amount of emigration to the UK.

Its truly sad Albanian food is actually a lot better than ours - even if it does give you the runs. Imagine the poor ol' diaspora in America stuck eating their Irish stew, forever enslaved to the customs of their ancestors.
I really don't think the Belushis would have ever stated their nationality as Albanian when asked, just a hunch though really having not known them personally.

Sorry I didn't realise I was discoursing with an english fella. Your country's ethnic integration problems are distressing to hear about though. I'd have thought the Paddy/Micks would blend in to the community rather than sticking to ethnic ghettos like Asians though. Still, and I think I've mentioned this at some point, if your parents are from another country and you still want to identify yourself with that country fair enough, though it would seem odd wouldn't it to suddenly switch in your mid-twenties from supporting England to having India as your team. You'd know what you were one way or the other by then wouldn't you?

You probably don't know, not being from here that Ireland is actually quite a prosperous country now (current troubles notwithstanding) so you dont need to leave to attain a comfortable livelihood, unless you happen to be a footballer sad to say.
I think btw Finnan qualifies for England the same way Vieira does for France. We are not a Homecountry as the Republic obtained independence quite a while ago.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Adrock, yer like a broken record at this stage. FIFA as we all know, are c*nts, but their eligibility rules are amongst their, er, better attributes.

And clearly you've never eaten food in Albania? I have. 'Interesting' is being polite.

[geysir]

Adrock, yer like a broken record at this stage.

Like a lot of other things as well, none of them flattering.
There is no purpose to his posts here, all aimless pointless drivel.

[Adrock]

Adrock, yer like a broken record at this stage. FIFA as we all know, are c*nts, but their eligibility rules are amongst their, er, better attributes.

And clearly you've never eaten food in Albania? I have. 'Interesting' is being polite.

I feel that way too, but several people seem to have trouble grasping the point, especially when it comes to Steve Finnan it appears

I have sampled Albanian cuisine in fact and it was quite tasty - the kind of Turkish food with a local twist you get through most of the Balkans.

Anyway time to sum up I think as I'm getting dizzy going round in circles. As far as the facts are concerned we - the Republic of Ireland - as a whole have not been producing sufficient quality players in recent years to sustain a competitive football team in the long term. I say the long term because a decade or so ago we were churning them out : say the generation born 1976 - 1983. Since then the supply has run dry, although I have hopes for some youngsters in our youth set up. It is as a result of this most likely the FAI has been stepping up its recruitment campaign, whether from England, Northern Ireland , Scotland or beyond in order to paper over the cracks and make it look like they're doing a good job.

What they in fact doing is exploiting FIFA's generous eligibility rules to pick off players from our neighbours to fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. Of course these rules are a good attribute in terms of us being able to exploit it to our advantage but they are not doing anything to truly enhance the health of Irish football. It would be nice to see them take their gaze away from nosing through family trees hunting for the next defector to poach and actually doing something positive like setting up a national academy so we are not almost entirely reliant on English clubs to nurture our players and perhaps set up some kind of half-serious national league, like the way Australia have done with their A League or the U.S whatever they call it. Ok so its never going to be a Premiership of Serie A but it would do us the world of good and be a good starting point for potential international players. Might even get a couple of Brazilians to come over and naturalise themselves! Then maybe most the space on this forum wouldn't be filled up with getting worked up over the next plastic, or dude with an Irish sounding name who may or maybe not be entitled to or give consideration to playing for us should his 'other options' not be likely to materialise.
Its been great talking to you all

[davey]

Its truly sad Albanian food is actually a lot better than ours - even if it does give you the runs. Imagine the poor ol' diaspora in America stuck eating their Irish stew, forever enslaved to the customs of their ancestors.
I really don't think the Belushis would have ever stated their nationality as Albanian when asked, just a hunch though really having not known them personally.

Sorry I didn't realise I was discoursing with an english fella. Your country's ethnic integration problems are distressing to hear about though. I'd have thought the Paddy/Micks would blend in to the community rather than sticking to ethnic ghettos like Asians though. Still, and I think I've mentioned this at some point, if your parents are from another country and you still want to identify yourself with that country fair enough, though it would seem odd wouldn't it to suddenly switch in your mid-twenties from supporting England to having India as your team. You'd know what you were one way or the other by then wouldn't you?

You probably don't know, not being from here that Ireland is actually quite a prosperous country now (current troubles notwithstanding) so you dont need to leave to attain a comfortable livelihood, unless you happen to be a footballer sad to say.
I think btw Finnan qualifies for England the same way Vieira does for France. We are not a Homecountry as the Republic obtained independence quite a while ago.

Have you had a lobotomy as your post makes no sense at all in reply to mine?. Where did I say anything about people switching the cricket team they support.

Irelands relative prosperity is rather a recent phenomena. I must be trying to debate with a teenager. An ignorant racist teenager at that with your comments about asian ethnic ghettos and Irish people blending in differently. What a tube.

BTW I'm English in the same way that Steve Finnan is English

[ArdeeBhoy]

What they in fact doing is exploiting FIFA's generous eligibility rules to pick off players from our neighbours to fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. Of course these rules are a good attribute in terms of us being able to exploit it to our advantage but they are not doing anything to truly enhance the health of Irish football.
It would be nice to see them take their gaze away from nosing through family trees hunting for the next defector to poach and actually doing something positive like setting up a national academy so we are not almost entirely reliant on English clubs to nurture our players and perhaps set up some kind of half-serious national league, like the way Australia have done with their A League or the U.S whatever they call it. Ok so its never going to be a Premiership of Serie A but it would do us the world of good and be a good starting point for potential international players. Might even get a couple of Brazilians to come over and naturalise themselves! Then maybe most the space on this forum wouldn't be filled up with getting worked up over the next plastic, or dude with an Irish sounding name who may or maybe not be entitled to or give consideration to playing for us should his 'other options' not be likely to materialise.

In answer to what I have defined as your first 'paragraph', Yawn, who cares?

The second is a more serious point, but not issues that can ever be answered here!
Why not send these requests to the FAI but are going to take about 20 years to implement, not withstanding the current financial climate?
Utopia's a nice idea, but unsure it can ever be achieved....

[SilkCut]

I feel that way too, but several people seem to have trouble grasping the point, especially when it comes to Steve Finnan it appears

I have sampled Albanian cuisine in fact and it was quite tasty - the kind of Turkish food with a local twist you get through most of the Balkans.

Anyway time to sum up I think as I'm getting dizzy going round in circles. As far as the facts are concerned we - the Republic of Ireland - as a whole have not been producing sufficient quality players in recent years to sustain a competitive football team in the long term. I say the long term because a decade or so ago we were churning them out : say the generation born 1976 - 1983. Since then the supply has run dry, although I have hopes for some youngsters in our youth set up. It is as a result of this most likely the FAI has been stepping up its recruitment campaign, whether from England, Northern Ireland , Scotland or beyond in order to paper over the cracks and make it look like they're doing a good job.

What they in fact doing is exploiting FIFA's generous eligibility rules to pick off players from our neighbours to fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. Of course these rules are a good attribute in terms of us being able to exploit it to our advantage but they are not doing anything to truly enhance the health of Irish football. It would be nice to see them take their gaze away from nosing through family trees hunting for the next defector to poach and actually doing something positive like setting up a national academy so we are not almost entirely reliant on English clubs to nurture our players and perhaps set up some kind of half-serious national league, like the way Australia have done with their A League or the U.S whatever they call it. Ok so its never going to be a Premiership of Serie A but it would do us the world of good and be a good starting point for potential international players. Might even get a couple of Brazilians to come over and naturalise themselves! Then maybe most the space on this forum wouldn't be filled up with getting worked up over the next plastic, or dude with an Irish sounding name who may or maybe not be entitled to or give consideration to playing for us should his 'other options' not be likely to materialise.
Its been great talking to you all

Its truly sad Albanian food is actually a lot better than ours - even if it does give you the runs. Imagine the poor ol' diaspora in America stuck eating their Irish stew, forever enslaved to the customs of their ancestors.
I really don't think the Belushis would have ever stated their nationality as Albanian when asked, just a hunch though really having not known them personally.

Sorry I didn't realise I was discoursing with an english fella. Your country's ethnic integration problems are distressing to hear about though. I'd have thought the Paddy/Micks would blend in to the community rather than sticking to ethnic ghettos like Asians though. Still, and I think I've mentioned this at some point, if your parents are from another country and you still want to identify yourself with that country fair enough, though it would seem odd wouldn't it to suddenly switch in your mid-twenties from supporting England to having India as your team. You'd know what you were one way or the other by then wouldn't you?

You probably don't know, not being from here that Ireland is actually quite a prosperous country now (current troubles notwithstanding) so you dont need to leave to attain a comfortable livelihood, unless you happen to be a footballer sad to say.
I think btw Finnan qualifies for England the same way Vieira does for France. We are not a Homecountry as the Republic obtained independence quite a while ago.

Two points in two posts that prove your undoubted worldliness. The A-League is basically the LOI with a "Star" player at each club, it is utter utter rubbish, both Guus Hiddink and Pim Verbeek have said so in as many words and they have both coached the national team, they have two sides - the A-league kids for the AFC qualifiers and the foreign based players for the WC qualifiers.

Your point about Ireland being a prosperous country...... Mate are you paying attention to whats going on around you? Ireland had a rich economy built on foreign investment. Ireland is officially in the poor house and will remain so for quite some time to come because we lived way beyond our means for so long - this suggests (economically) that we were never really wealthy we just got given a pile of cash and instead of saving it we wasted it. Rather like a kid with their communion money, they are wealthy in comparison to their friends but in the grander scheme of things they are not. Rather like you mate, you may seem intelligent and well rounded in comparison to your mates but on here with a broader base of people and personalities..................................... ...............................

[Adrock]

Two points in two posts that prove your undoubted worldliness. The A-League is basically the LOI with a "Star" player at each club, it is utter utter rubbish, both Guus Hiddink and Pim Verbeek have said so in as many words and they have both coached the national team, they have two sides - the A-league kids for the AFC qualifiers and the foreign based players for the WC qualifiers.

Your point about Ireland being a prosperous country...... Mate are you paying attention to whats going on around you? Ireland had a rich economy built on foreign investment. Ireland is officially in the poor house and will remain so for quite some time to come because we lived way beyond our means for so long - this suggests (economically) that we were never really wealthy we just got given a pile of cash and instead of saving it we wasted it. Rather like a kid with their communion money, they are wealthy in comparison to their friends but in the grander scheme of things they are not. Rather like you mate, you may seem intelligent and well rounded in comparison to your mates but on here with a broader base of people and personalities..................................... ...............................

Yes, intellectual giants all of you...............
Well living in Ireland and not the other side of the world I dont know the exact merits of Australian football but at least they have a professional structure in place the offers a starting point for potential international quality players. Much like Norway, sure most their first choice players are usually based abroad but they all made their mark first in Norway's league. We have a similar population and , unlike Australia where your soccer is a minority sport, football is our national sport(please don't mention gaelic) so having a reasonably serious national league like most European countries manage, should be realistic. Look at Irish rugby - much less popular sport but they have the right structure in place and the results at club and international level to back it up, and every one of the Ireland team is Irish to the core. Maybe a Celtic super league with teams from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland could be an option, I'm sure FIFA wouldn't stand in the way.

[greendeiseboy]

Yes, intellectual giants all of you...............
We have a similar population and , unlike Australia where your soccer is a minority sport, football is our national sport(please don't mention gaelic) so having a reasonably serious national league like most European countries manage, should be realistic. Look at Irish rugby - much less popular sport but they have the right structure in place and the results at club and international level to back it up, and every one of the Ireland team is Irish to the core. Maybe a Celtic super league with teams from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland could be an option, I'm sure FIFA wouldn't stand in the way.

Football i.e. Soccer our National sport - come on boi will you get a grip

All Irish Rugby Squad Irish to the core - I assume you mean by that Irish born and bred -dont think so - Issac Boss, Tom Court, Brett Wilkinson all born abroad some have tentative links - and we also had the Easterby's and Simon Geoghan born and bred in England to name a few.

And for the record Jamie Heaslip was born in Israel!!!!

Bit more research Ardrock

[Charlie Darwin]

There is no way soccer is Ireland's national sport.

[TrapAPony]

There is no way soccer is Ireland's national sport.

Ya it's well behind Rugby & GAA.