Without a doubt. No point in hanging on to him til ye see the draw, it's gonna be tough no matter what.Originally Posted by Cymro
Azerbaijan 17,106
Leichtenstein 13,356
Finland 22,604
Germany 26,064
Russia 14,505
Shocking stuff really.
Obviously crowds have fallen since the excitement of Euro 04 qualifying, but 22-26,000 would be (close to) a sellout at Swansea or Cardiff's club grounds.
Czechia and Poland both got less than 5,000 last night (we took 2,200 to Prague).
Spot on mate. Both grounds create great atmospheres when full.
Maybe if the Russian and German matches were at the start and not when they were already knocked out the attendances would havce been much higher.
From the next campaign on we are going to play matches in the new Cardiff Stadium. Obviously as a Jack I would like to see them played at the Liberty instead but both would create a better atmosphere than the millenium Stadium does at the moment. Plus, the Cardiff stadium is really a nice ground (says Cymro through gritted teeth).
We are also due to play the Scotland friendly there and I would be surprised if it wasn't a sell-out. Regardless of our disappointing campaign, we have a good rivalry and Scotland will bring plenty of fans down too I'm sure.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
That's exactly what I heard he was on GR. McLeish was on 200K with Scotland. Stan was on at least 400K.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
I think the Poles may have organised a boycott of the national team last night. I know there was talk of a protest against the PZPN over the fallout from Beenhaker and his replacement (lack of) and there was talk of a protest 2-3 weeks ago.
Aye, the Polish fans in Britain mentioned it on their site. I think the Czechs just couldn't be arsed.
Is Roy Evans in Toshack's coaching team? Could he be a candidate?Apols if he's already been mentioned.
I think Wales are a mixed bag. Some really good players and some up and comings, but also some journeymen. It's hard to be too critical especially with players like Koumas (I think he'd walk into the Ireland midfield) unavailable and so many injuries during the campaign. That said, I've always felt Toshack could be getting more from them. Perish the thought, but Wales remind me a bit of Stan's Ireland: a mix of good performances with really poor ones, the good coming at random (our friendly win in Denmark, Wales' in Slovakia...). There's no steeliness or streetwisesness to Wales.
Hennessy, despite the acclaims & his potential, doesn't inspire confidence in me for club or country.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,195...630716,00.html
According to this, he isn't going to be sacked and wouldn't have been even had we lost in Liechtenstein.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
Should have been at least level with Finland, joint 3rd in the group.
Getting beat at home by Finland was a poor result.
All realistic hope was gone of finishing in the first 2 after that. Every game after was a competitive dead rubber.
I like Toshack, though haven't a clue about him and the Wales job.
The guy before him was a bit of a loony, a mess of uncoordinated emotions.
in all honesty a 4th place finish will be seen as a failure as id assume minimum expectation was 3rd spot but finland have a decent team and have improved since hodgeson took over and kicked on following his departure. they are no world beaters but certianly no whipping boys either.
I would think ye will get a very hard draw for the euros and will take a few campaigns to get back to where sparky got ye
It's always easier to sack a manager than to appoint one, so if the incumbent is doing even moderately well, then I would always tend to stick with him (unless an outstanding replacement was available).
But from what I see, Tosh is not doing "moderately well", or even "moderately badly", he's doing atrociously. So much so that I suspect if I were Welsh, I'd already be grabbing my pitchfork and rounding up an angry mob!
For even if there isn't an obvious candidate to replace him right now, the total lack of any sign that he may finally be turning things round makes it inevitable (imo) that he will end up being sacked some day. In which case, it's only a question of how bad things have to get before that happens.
For having already dismantled/discarded/p1ssed off etc the Mark Hughes team, his attempt to start afresh with (potentially outstanding) youngsters has so far fared so badly that he may even have ruined them for the next few years.
Of course, that may seem harsh, especially coming from someone who has only been following Wales from a distance etc. But I base that opinion on a direct comparison with NI.
If I'm honest, Wales have if anything better players than us. And if Tosh had a hard act to follow in Hughes, that task was no worse that that facing Nigel W. (Arguably easier, since NW had to take over mid-campaign, on a temporary contract).
Above all, what shocked me most in checking out Tosh's CV is how long he has had in situ. When some NI fans were gurning (predictably) about NW soon after he took over, I argued that he needed a full campaign before he should be judged. And that having been completed, I feel he's doing a decent job, all things considered.
Yet Tosh has had two full campaigns and achieved precisely nothing. Fair enough, NI have not qualified and may not next time. But with a pretty mediocre set of players, we are still competitive, no-one gives us a hiding and we can hope to pull off the odd big win now and again (at home, anyhow!). Consequently, when the Euro2012 draw is made, I'm sure the other teams in our Group will respect us, even if they hardly fear us.
By contrast, I'm sure most 3rd seeded teams or above would be quite happy to draw Wales in their Group, since it is so long since they were last a team to be reckoned with.
Therefore when you consider Tosh's age (turned 60), his previous hasty walk-out from the Wales job (41 days!) and his prior club managerial record (8 clubs in the previous 10 years, with precious little success), it seems clear that he is not going to resign; rather, he's merely putting in the time before one last pay-off.
Of course, there is an argument that the FAW cannot afford to sack him and appoint a decent replacement, but the way things are going, can they afford not to? Considering that just 6 or 7 years ago, Wales were filling/near filling the Millennium, those recent attendance figures quoted are shocking. Admittedly, I'm not familiar with the present mood of Wales fans, but if NI's history in the 90's is anything to go by, believe me, crowds could get even worse.
Who to appoint? Tbh, even if there isn't an obvious/affordable replacement out there, then to drive a wedge under the continuing decline, I'd look either for a (veteran?) caretaker on a short-term contract, or even a club manager on a part-time/job-share basis (David Jones?). Failing that, look outside the list of Welsh Nationals - maybe Kerr or Sanchez?
P.S. If Toshack should prove to be the Messiah who leads Wales to Poland/Ukraine in 2012, I reserve the right to deny point-blank that I ever had any doubt whatever in his ability and acumen! (I'm always forgetting to Log-Off this site, especially when there's other people around...)
actually brian kerr would be a very able and affordable candidate? he is brilliant with young players and did a steady if unspectacular job with us and is now the best manager ever of the faroes
Mark Hughes? Done quite well in the Premiership at Blackburn and Man City, for a loony.
Broadly agree with Ealing's analysis, (and in fairness, he is more knowlegable about Welsh football than most Welsh fans are) though I would say atrocious is perhaps a bit harsh. I mean, the Euro 2008 campaign wasn't all that bad; we had 3 or 4 decent results (0-0 home draw against Czechs, 5-2 win in Slovakia, 2-2 draw against ROI, and 0-0 draw in Germany). The only really poor results were the defeats in Cyprus and Dublin. However, I do agree more generally that Toshack has had enough time and hasn't really delivered, despite some high points.
I have to say it has been really enjoyable debating with fans from Ireland on here. As I said, the knowledge of some on here about Welsh football is really good. I wasn't really expecting anywhere near as many replies as I actually got when I started this thread.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
carmarthen town beat us in the uefa cup back so have ta keep a eye out on you welsh
Last edited by Acornvilla; 28/10/2009 at 4:11 PM.
OK, maybe describing Toshack's record as "atrocious" was going a bit far, but it is still very poor (imo).
Anyhow, whilst I am a firm believer in giving a manager time before judging him, after 5 years and two full campaigns, I think we have seen enough of Tosh to venture an opinion.
And any look at Toshack's tenure, eg by FIFA's Rankings, must make depressing reading for Taffs:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ra...llranking.html
Granted, those Rankings are unreliable in certain respects, but can still be revealing if viewed over a sufficiently long period (imo).
Nor does context offer any mitigation for Toshack (i.e. as against mere results). In this respect, I would compare Wales with NI - similar teams, background, record, resources etc, with if anything, Tosh having access to better players than his NI counterparts.
There is a neat device for comparing and tracking teams on the Rankings site, which gives a clear picture:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ra...&tm=10&ty=2009
Starting with Wales, when Mark Hughes took over in Aug 99, Wales were ranked 86 (NI were 71). By the time he left, they had risen to 57 (NI, now managed by McIlroy, were down to 110 and sinking like a stone).
Subsequently under Toshack, Wales have gone down from 57 to 78, whilst NI (under Sanchez and Worthy) have risen from 110 to 30.
Of course, the respective managerial periods don't exactly overlap, but if you look at it using NI managers' dates, the trend is the same:
When McIlroy took over in Feb 2000, NI were ranked 88; by the time of his departure in Oct 2003, we were down to 118. In the same period Wales went up from 99 to 59.
When Sanchez took over in Jan 2004, NI were 124; by the time he left in Apr 2007, we had climbed to 33. Wales slipped from 65 to 74.
When Worthy took over NI in June 2007, we were 36. He has now taken us up to 30. In the same period, Wales have fallen from 58 to 78.
My Conclusion?
Hughes - Excellent
McIlroy - Lemon
Sanchez - Outstanding
Toshack - V.Poor
Worthington - Encouraging
(Btw, I am not pointing this out in order to "big up" NI. Well not much, anyway
P.S. Entirely Useless Trivia Question No. 203:
"What makes Wales unique in World Football?"
They're the only national team to play their home internationals in Wales.
You have to consider that for the first two to three years of Toshack's management we were basically using kids of 18 to 19 who were in youth teams at Championship teams or just starting their senior careers, again at lower league teams. Players like Lewin Nyatanga, Chris Gunter, Gareth Bale, Joe Ledley, Wayne Hennessey, Owain Tudur Jones, Jermaine Easter and Andrew Crofts were all fairly regular players in the squad from around 2004 after the old guard retired. At that time, those players were extremely raw and not all getting regular club football. We also had Steve Evans as a fourth-choice centre-back right up until the Russia away game (which was the first in this campaign), and he has played most of his career in the Welsh Premier, in front of crowds of a few hundred and against part-time opposition. So given the players available in the period of roughly 2004-2007, I think Toshack did a reasonable job. It's only really in this campaign that he has really done badly. Our players are now much more experienced in both club and international football and we also have really talented kids like Ramsey and Bale. Most people expected us to do much better than we have. For my part though, I was broadly supportive of Toshack until this campaign.OK, maybe describing Toshack's record as "atrocious" was going a bit far, but it is still very poor (imo).
Anyhow, whilst I am a firm believer in giving a manager time before judging him, after 5 years and two full campaigns, I think we have seen enough of Tosh to venture an opinion.
And any look at Toshack's tenure, eg by FIFA's Rankings, must make depressing reading for Taffs:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ra...llranking.html
Granted, those Rankings are unreliable in certain respects, but can still be revealing if viewed over a sufficiently long period (imo).
Nor does context offer any mitigation for Toshack (i.e. as against mere results). In this respect, I would compare Wales with NI - similar teams, background, record, resources etc, with if anything, Tosh having access to better players than his NI counterparts.
There is a neat device for comparing and tracking teams on the Rankings site, which gives a clear picture:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ra...&tm=10&ty=2009
Starting with Wales, when Mark Hughes took over in Aug 99, Wales were ranked 86 (NI were 71). By the time he left, they had risen to 57 (NI, now managed by McIlroy, were down to 110 and sinking like a stone).
Subsequently under Toshack, Wales have gone down from 57 to 78, whilst NI (under Sanchez and Worthy) have risen from 110 to 30.
Of course, the respective managerial periods don't exactly overlap, but if you look at it using NI managers' dates, the trend is the same:
When McIlroy took over in Feb 2000, NI were ranked 88; by the time of his departure in Oct 2003, we were down to 118. In the same period Wales went up from 99 to 59.
When Sanchez took over in Jan 2004, NI were 124; by the time he left in Apr 2007, we had climbed to 33. Wales slipped from 65 to 74.
When Worthy took over NI in June 2007, we were 36. He has now taken us up to 30. In the same period, Wales have fallen from 58 to 78.
My Conclusion?
Hughes - Excellent
McIlroy - Lemon
Sanchez - Outstanding
Toshack - V.Poor
Worthington - Encouraging
(Btw, I am not pointing this out in order to "big up" NI. Well not much, anyway
P.S. Entirely Useless Trivia Question No. 203:
"What makes Wales unique in World Football?"
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
Wales failed to qualify with far better players than the current squad so with the u21's doing well then maybe the future looks good with some of them already with first team experience which they might not have got under previous managers.
With the success that Brian Flynn is having with the u21's then he might be the obvious choice to replace Toshack if he gets the boot.
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