Paddy McCourt

[EalingGreen]

What other association has he represented and when?

Gorman played for the ROI U-16's when he was on Man U's books, including against NI:

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/spor...land-squad.htm
"His [Gorman's] attitude is correct. Indeed I think we have found a gem."

Worthington first noticed Gorman, whose mother, Sue, is Northern Irish when training at Lilleshall.

Worthington added: "He looked the part and was delighted to opt for us when approached.

"He had, of course, earlier played for the Republic of Ireland youth."

As opposed to quoting articles to document his current fitness?

Flexy originally posted a bigoted rant claiming that McCourt wan't being picked because NW was anti-LOI/wanted a Protestant team etc.
I pointed out, with evidence, just what offensive garbage this was, noting that Paddy's non-inclusion was solely down to lack of fitness.

You then posted: "All well and good but qualified by the knowledge that a school boy has been included in the NI squad (at Paddy McCourt's expense?). Perhaps other issues at play have influenced Nigel's squad selection?" , so I posted clear evidence about Paddy's (non) fitness to support my case.

I also pointed out that it is most unlikely to have been a question of cost-saving and pointed out how Gorman has not been included in place of Paddy, nor will he (JG) have been picked in order to tie him in to NI.

So we are back to your original speculation that there might be "other issues at play" behind McCourt's non-inclusion.
Seeing as your first two "issues" have been demonstrated to be nonsense, do you have any more?

[Flexy]

I apologise to everyone about the comments I made the other day they werent meant to be biggoted about NW and the IFA and their great fans. I think NW should look at LOI football as well and if he wanted to enquire about young LOI players who would be eligible to play for NI I would be all for it. But Nigel took quite a few players from the Irish League on the summer tour but didnt look into possibilities of seeing if any players from the LOI would be willing to play for Northern Ireland. I dont think our leagues gets enough credit. I could bet my life on it that Liam Boyce will probably get called up in the next year after signing for Werder Bremen. and fair play to the lad hes done so well and credit goes to Cliftonville and the Irish League. But again sorry for any offence I have caused to anyone and hope both Northern and Republic have great Euro campaigns and qualify for Poland and Ukraine

[ifk101]

Gorman played for the ROI U-16's when he was on Man U's books, including against NI:

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/spor...land-squad.htm
"His [Gorman's] attitude is correct. Indeed I think we have found a gem."

Worthington first noticed Gorman, whose mother, Sue, is Northern Irish when training at Lilleshall.

Worthington added: "He looked the part and was delighted to opt for us when approached.

"He had, of course, earlier played for the Republic of Ireland youth."

Shame on Nigel "right and proper" Worthlesston for poaching a player that has come through the FAI's youth system. But Gorman did not play for the FAI in a "competitive" game so he is not tied to NI until he plays in a competitive senior international. Your "News of the World" link is broken btw

You then posted: "All well and good but qualified by the knowledge that a school boy has been included in the NI squad (at Paddy McCourt's expense?). Perhaps other issues at play have influenced Nigel's squad selection?" , so I posted clear evidence about Paddy's (non) fitness to support my case.

You quoted an article dated 11/08/2010 to support your McCourt's "poor" fitness assertion. McCourt subsequently started and scored the winning goal in a Celtic match on the 14/08/2010. Given that a couple of players who have never competitively played for their respective clubs' first teams are included in the NI squad to face Slovenia, I'd be more inclined to question their fitness levels for the challenges of senior international football than McCourt's fitness. I'm sure there are plenty of NI fans that would have preferred to see McCourt in the squad ahead of some of the selected players and I'm sure they're also questioning Nigel's McCourt snub especially as NI have yet to score a goal this decade.

I also pointed out that it is most unlikely to have been a question of cost-saving and pointed out how Gorman has not been included in place of Paddy, nor will he (JG) have been picked in order to tie him in to NI.

In your opinion which I'm entitled to disagree with for reasons already stated.

Seeing as your first two "issues" have been demonstrated to be nonsense

On the contrary.

[EalingGreen]

Shame on Nigel "right and proper" Worthlesston for poaching a player that has come through the FAI's youth system.

Gorman has a grandparent from ROI and a parent from NI, so both the FAI and IFA must be equally entitled to persuade him to represent them, as opposed to the FA (land of his birth).
What I object to is an Association being allowed to select someone not born within their territory, who does not also have a parent/grandparent who was.
Sadly, the way FIFA have drafted Article 15 means that uniquely amongst the 208 Member Associations, the FAI has been permitted an exemption to this general principle, but there you go.

But Gorman did not play for the FAI in a "competitive" game so he is not tied to NI until he plays in a competitive senior international.

FIFA Article 18 (my emphasis):
"1. If a player has more than one nationality... ... he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, etc"

You quoted an article dated 11/08/2010 to support your McCourt's "poor" fitness assertion. McCourt subsequently started and scored the winning goal in a Celtic match on the 14/08/2010. Given that a couple of players who have never competitively played for their respective clubs' first teams are included in the NI squad to face Slovenia, I'd be more inclined to question their fitness levels for the challenges of senior international football than McCourt's fitness. I'm sure there are plenty of NI fans that would have preferred to see McCourt in the squad ahead of some of the selected players and I'm sure they're also questioning Nigel's McCourt snub especially as NI have yet to score a goal this decade.

Celtic have played seven competitive games this season:

Braga 3 v 0 Celtic - Paddy unused sub
Celtic 2 v 1 Braga - Paddy came on for the last 3 minutes
Inverness 0 v 1 Celtic - Paddy started, scored and went off injured (60 mins)
Celtic 2 v 0 Utrecht - Paddy unused sub
Celtic 4 v 0 St. Mirren - Paddy came on for last 25 minutes
Utrecht 4 v 0 Celtic - Paddy came on for last 18 minutes
Motherwell 0 v 1 Celtic - Paddy came on for last 22 minutes

Conclusion? When it comes to the big games, Lennon simply does not trust Paddy to play more than a few minutes, if at all. And neither did Mowbray, neither did Strachan, which is why he only made 4 SPL starts in the previous two seasons.
NW, who recalled Paddy to the NI squad and took a look at him, both in training and during games btw, has come to the same conclusion as they have.
Of course NI fans may disagree with this and question some of his other selections etc, just as ROI fans question eg Trap's selection of McShane or Kilbane, but excusion of eg Andy Reid.
But whatever the case, NW has been entirely consistent in his approach on McCourt.
Moreover, he has publicly stated on several occasions that when/if Paddy gets a run of games for Celtic, he will be back in the squad.
And whatever else, I guarantee that that other (former Derry City) Celt, Niall McGinn, will be straight back in the moment his injury heals.

In your opinion which I'm entitled to disagree with for reasons already stated.

You can hold whatever opinions you like, but if you persist in holding on to them, even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, then you risk looking silly and/or obstinate.

[EalingGreen]

I apologise to everyone about the comments I made the other day they werent meant to be biggoted about NW and the IFA and their great fans. I think NW should look at LOI football as well and if he wanted to enquire about young LOI players who would be eligible to play for NI I would be all for it. But Nigel took quite a few players from the Irish League on the summer tour but didnt look into possibilities of seeing if any players from the LOI would be willing to play for Northern Ireland. I dont think our leagues gets enough credit. I could bet my life on it that Liam Boyce will probably get called up in the next year after signing for Werder Bremen. and fair play to the lad hes done so well and credit goes to Cliftonville and the Irish League. But again sorry for any offence I have caused to anyone and hope both Northern and Republic have great Euro campaigns and qualify for Poland and Ukraine

Well, I must confess I didn't see that one coming(!), but fair play to you.

I now happily withdraw my comments made in response to your original post.

Edit: On a point of information, I would suggest that the reason why NW did not take any LOI players on tour to the USA, as he did with IL players, was at least partly because this was the end of the IL season, whereas the LOI was still in mid-season. Which was what caused Alan Mannus (Shams) to turn him down, thereby forcing NW to call up Alan Blayney (Linfield) instead.

[ifk101]

Gorman has a grandparent from ROI and a parent from NI, so both the FAI and IFA must be equally entitled to persuade him to represent them, as opposed to the FA (land of his birth).

I've no problem with Gorman representing NI if he so wishes. It's his choice and I wish him the best with that choice.

FIFA Article 18 (my emphasis):
"1. If a player has more than one nationality... ... he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, etc"

Read the article again and note the use of the word "competitive" which you have conveniently sought to ignore.

You can hold whatever opinions you like, but if you persist in holding on to them, even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, then you risk looking silly and/or obstinate.

Take heed of your own advice. As a football fan I'm entitled to express my views on McCourt's snub without having that opinion ridiculed and bullied simply because it does not align with your preconceived notions. Like many others that have commented on this subject, I think McCourt is more worthy of inclusion in the NI squad than a school boy footballer.

[EalingGreen]

I've no problem with Gorman representing NI if he so wishes. It's his choice and I wish him the best with that choice.

Hmmm, so if a player has Dual Nationality, you have no problem with his switching from Team X to Team Y.

Yet by your sneering comment in post #104: - "Shame on Nigel 'right and proper' Worthlesston for poaching a player that has come through the FAI's youth system" - you do have a problem with the manager of Team Y persuading him to switch.

Does that mean, therefore, that you believe the FAI should not be approaching NI players either?

Or when it comes to Dual Nationality, do you like to apply Dual Standards?

Read the article again and note the use of the word "competitive" which you have conveniently sought to ignore.

I only needed to read it once to understand it.

But as you're evidently still struggling with it, the explanation is as follows. When, at the request of several North African countries, FIFA's 2009 Congress voted to rescind one of the eligibility conditions so that there would no longer be a prohibition on Dual Nationals switching Associations after their 21st Birthday, they also tightened another, so that henceforth a player could only switch Associations once.

However, these two changes did not alter or otherwise affect the separate principle that once a player has played in a competitive "A" International for an Association, he is henceforth tied in to that Association for good. Which is only what Article 18, 1(a) reiterated.

Therefore Gorman was not tied to the ROI when he switched to NI. However, even though he has not played a competitive "A" International for NI, he could still not switch back to the ROI (as eg Kane and O'Connor did in reverse), since he has now used up his one switch.

All of which means NW does not need to play him against Slovenia in order to tie him in to NI, as you suggested.

Take heed of your own advice. As a football fan I'm entitled to express my views on McCourt's snub without having that opinion ridiculed and bullied simply because it does not align with your preconceived notions. Like many others that have commented on this subject, I think McCourt is more worthy of inclusion in the NI squad than a school boy footballer.

You're moving the goalposts again - and none too subtly.

For the issue is not whether McCourt should be in the NI squad or not - that is a moot point, over which I have expressed no strong opinion either way.

Rather, in response to Flexy's original claim that Paddy was being excuded by NW for, shall we say, non-footballing reasons, I pointed out that it was nothing of the sort. That is, NW had made it expressly clear that it was solely due to Paddy's lack of physical conditioning that he was out of the squad and as soon as he put that right by getting consistent game-time for Celtic, he would be back in.

You, however, have rejected that explanation, even in the face of factual evidence to back it up, suggesting instead that NW has "other issues" with Paddy.

And when challenged to substantiate these other issues, all you could come up with was "cost-cutting" and the need to tie-in Gorman, even if it means giving him Paddy's place.

Both of those "issues" are garbage, as even a cursory examination of the true situation reveals.

P.S. I'm sorry if the above may cause you to feel further "bullied", but I can see no way of addressing the real issues, other than by recourse to the facts. As for your feeling "ridiculed", you can solve that problem yourself, when you stop making ridiculous claims...

[ifk101]

Hmmm, so if a player has Dual Nationality, you have no problem with his switching from Team X to Team Y.

Yet by your sneering comment in post #104: - "Shame on Nigel 'right and proper' Worthlesston for poaching a player that has come through the FAI's youth system" - you do have a problem with the manager of Team Y persuading him to switch.

Does that mean, therefore, that you believe the FAI should not be approaching NI players either?

Or when it comes to Dual Nationality, do you like to apply Dual Standards?

No I was just highlighting Nigel Worthlesston's two faced standards.

I only needed to read it once to understand it.

Gorman hasn't requested to change associations. As he never represented the FAI in a competitive fixture he didn't need to. Article 18 does not apply.

You're moving the goalposts again - and none too subtly.

I haven't commented on Flexy's post. McCourt's background has nothing to do with his non-selection and I have never stated otherwise. Your preconceived notions believed that my "other issues" comment suggested that this was the case. I do not believe that a school boy has higher fitness levels that Paddy McCourt so I do not believe that fitness is the reason for McCourt's non-selection. I have offered reasons as to why I believe this to be the case.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So not even you can defend Flexy's bigoted rant, therefore you try to minimise its importance...

You're worse than he is.

You'd know. And what 'bigoted rant'?

Talking **** seems to be a speciality!

[EalingGreen]

No I was just highlighting Nigel Worthlesston's two faced standards.

NW/the IFA believes that a player should normally represent the Association within whose territory he was born (to borrow FIFA's term from Arts.16, 17 & 18), unless he may represent an alternative Association, by virtue of having a parent or grandparent born within the territory of that other Association.
As such, their stance is exactly the same as that which applies to 206 out of the other 207 Member Associations of FIFA.
So no double standards there.

Gorman hasn't requested to change associations. As he never represented the FAI in a competitive fixture he didn't need to. Article 18 does not apply.

Then why was eg Shane Duffy's registration with the FAI delayed (whilst the CAS was deliberating), if he did not have to change Associations? Seeing as he had never played for us in a competitive "A" International, why didn't he just go ahead and join up with one of their teams?

If you read the relevant Article again(!), you will see it is entitled: "18. Change of Association". It is not entitled "Changing Association in order to play competitive 'A' Internationals" (or somesuch)

And if you look at the body of the Article, Paragraph 1. merely refers to "[changing] the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches", it does not specify that these must be competitive "A" matches etc.

Or when Gorman was in the ROI U-16's was he not playing "international matches" (for the FAI)? When he is in one of our teams, is he not playing "international matches" for the IFA?

Where you are going wrong is that Art. 18 specifically provides for changing Associations, not teams or tournaments etc; which a player may now only do once, provided he is not already barred* from doing so.

* - Eg by having played a competitve "A" international for his first Association, or because he did not hold the relevant Nationality of his new Association at the time he played any competitive matches, any level, for his first Association (cf. Michel Arteta)

I haven't commented on Flexy's post.

Agreed.

McCourt's background has nothing to do with his non-selection

Agreed.

and I have never stated otherwise.

Agreed.

Your preconceived notions believed that my "other issues" comment suggested that this was the case. I do not believe that a school boy has higher fitness levels that Paddy McCourt so I do not believe that fitness is the reason for McCourt's non-selection. I have offered reasons as to why I believe this to be the case.

Ah, now we get to the nub.

Exactly what "preconceived notions" of mine would those be? Show me where I assumed, inferred, implied or asserted that the "other issues" which you ascribed to NW were anything to do with Paddy's background? (To save your time looking, I didn't).

You'll find I asked you a simple, open question i.e. "what exactly are those other issues?"

And when you came back with the suggestion of Cost-cutting, I pointed out why this were nonsense (i.e full squad for Montenegro).

Or when you attempted to conflate Paddy's non-selection with Gorman's inclusion, I pointed out that each occupies a different position and each is selected (or not) on his own merits. (Gorman is in so as to fast-track him for the future, Paddy is out because he hasn't played enough for Celtic)

Or are you suggesting eg that NW has "issues" with Andy Little (Rangers), Ollie Norwood (MU) or Ryan McGivern (Man.City/Walsall), to explain why he left them out of his squad for Slovenia?

[EalingGreen]

You'd know. And what 'bigoted rant'?

Talking **** seems to be a speciality!

The one contained in post #50. But Flexy had the good grace to retract his post (#103), which I acknowledged in kind, whereas you seem to be carrying on in your usual, charmless manner.

So Adios, Andy...

[osarusan]

Or when Gorman was in the ROI U-16's was he not playing "international matches" (for the FAI)? When he is in one of our teams, is he not playing "international matches" for the IFA?

I think I read in another thread that an under-16 game isn't officially representing an association, and as a result, the player is not tied to that association. Should a player choose to play for the team of another country, he wouldn't have to 'switch over' from the team he'd played for before.

[Flexy]

Id like to say well done to Northern Ireland for the great win last night, proves to me I was wrong about NW team or squad selction and Nigel was right. I still think he could have had Paddy in the squad though but thats for another day. Hope Norn Ireland can push on from this now in a really tough group, but fair play to them the whole team were excellent on the night and proved all the critics including myself wrong

[harry crumb]

Nigel was right....

Total hit and run job.

Slovenia could have got 3/4

[Predator]

I think I read in another thread that an under-16 game isn't officially representing an association, and as a result, the player is not tied to that association. Should a player choose to play for the team of another country, he wouldn't have to 'switch over' from the team he'd played for before.

Indeed. I believe that because it's not strictly official, James Wallace and Ger Kinsella were able to play for the FAI U16 team without meeting the requisite eligibility criteria.

[Predator]

Then why was eg Shane Duffy's registration with the FAI delayed (whilst the CAS was deliberating), if he did not have to change Associations? Seeing as he had never played for us in a competitive "A" International, why didn't he just go ahead and join up with one of their teams?

The obvious difference is that Duffy had represented the IFA in competitive games at U19 and U21 level and was required to go through the process. Gorman, I believe, only had U16 honours for the FAI and did not have to go through a formal process of change.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The one contained in post #50. But Flexy had the good grace to retract his post (#103), which I acknowledged in kind, whereas you seem to be carrying on in your usual, charmless manner.

So Adios, Andy...

WTF are you on about?
It's on the basis of yer usual misinformed nonsense. As for being 'charmless', well intellectualism is hardly your strength on the basis of your misguided rants.

Read what Pred.and Danny I say re.nationality before you go off on one. It's a subject you have a very limited understanding of.

[hedderman]

It appears that Worthington rates McGinn more highly than McCourt. Paddy might be the more talented individual but in my opinion McGinn is more effective. He's more likely to run all evening and put in crosses from the wings.

[Charlie Darwin]

Sadly, the way FIFA have drafted Article 15 means that uniquely amongst the 208 Member Associations, the FAI has been permitted an exemption to this general principle, but there you go.

This was pointed out in the CAS thread (you may not have been around at the time), but the FAI is by no means unique here. Turkish Cypriots have the same entitlement to Turkish citizenship as Northern Irish people do to Irish citizenship, and I believe the two Koreas offer similar but different entitlements. There have been numerous cases of multi-ethnic states breaking up and border disputes throughout 20th Century European history to which the principle has also been applied. It's unusual, but it's far from unique.

[gustavo]

He's been at it again

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=nnv0yb&s=7