Clubs want format changed

**Bluebeard** · 05/10/2009, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by davidatrb

I feel a bit like an LOI footballer, dont think I've worked for the same employer for more than 2 years.

Bit of a big statement. Can you prove you went about 4 months waiting on your wages?

**pineapple stu** · 05/10/2009, 9:12 AM

Originally Posted by davidatrb

If I was to choose between working in a shop for 35K or playing football for 10K, I would play football.

And how would you pay the bills on a salary of E10k?

Also, "professional footballer" is awful on a CV. At least in regular employment, you're (supposed to be) gaining skills which may be useful to future employment. That also goes for A face's post on the short careers of footballers. It's not just that they're short - it's that you come out of it with nothing. You're in your mid 30s with no real job experience, and you're not exactly an attractive employee proposition. I know of one former footballer - Irish international in his day - who applied for a job where my sister works, but had nothing pertinent to show on his CV.

Originally Posted by A face

That whole post is a point well made but on the third point, you will get burnt out faster holding down a full time job and playing, travelling all over the country and your football will suffer as well.

Not sure what the point of that is? There's plenty of players who've played part-time football until their mid 30s.

**davidatrb** · 05/10/2009, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And how would you pay the bills on a salary of E10k?

Rent a small apartment. Shop at Tescos. Drive an old banger. Get a second job.

It's a short career, I'd manage for a few years or so like that - just like regular ppl manage at college for four years on next to nothing.

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Also, "professional footballer" is awful on a CV. At least in regular employment, you're (supposed to be) gaining skills which may be useful to future employment. That also goes for A face's post on the short careers of footballers. It's not just that they're short - it's that you come out of it with nothing. You're in your mid 30s with no real job experience, and you're not exactly an attractive employee proposition. I know of one former footballer - Irish international in his day - who applied for a job where my sister works, but had nothing pertinent to show on his CV.

Not sure what the point of that is? There's plenty of players who've played part-time football until their mid 30s.

The average salary for a college graduate is something like 24K. The average irish salary for a person with 10-19 years experience in their job is something like 50K.

The average number of careers anybody has is fairly high. It is not just a phenomenon with footballers that they reach the end of a career and have to retrain or start again from scratch. And if they are smart they will have been studying/training while still playing.

I know Premiership players pick up huge wages. I accept that, I prefer to see them pocket the vasts amount of cash that goes around there than to see the Media Corporations or the Rich club owners line their pockets. After all they are the stars, they make the money.

But in the LOI there is just not the money. And I dont accept that the top teams need to keep going bust competing to pay the biggest wages. I reckon the young lads just gone pro should be happy with anything from 20K to 30K with the hope that during their career they might hit a maximum of 50K or so. So with a mixed squad of young players and experienced players I would imagine its possible to have a full time outfit for an average of 35K plus bonuses.

Anybody that wants to earn more let them go to where the money is, and see if they are worth it, or change their careers and play part time football to keep up their passion.

"Professional Footballer" doesn't look awful on a CV. If I apply for a job as a fitness trainer or sports journalist then "Software Developer" looks awful on a CV. Depends on what jobs you go for, and as I said they can be working on separate qualifications during their football career.

**pineapple stu** · 05/10/2009, 10:16 AM

I don't think football is a four-year career though. And even then, good luck living on ten grand a year if you're renting a flat and driving a car.

And we're still not factoring in the likelihood that you could be let go at the end of the season, or be injured and have your career brought to a sudden end. And then there's also the fact that you can earn more money by playing part-time. What's the big incentive to go full-time?

I know we've had several players who've been offered full-time contracts - mainly in the LoI - but turned them down.

**dahamsta** · 05/10/2009, 10:24 AM

Are we talking ten grand before or after tax?

**pineapple stu** · 05/10/2009, 10:24 AM

No tax on ten grand a year, Adam. Minimum wage is outisde the tax bracket and is E20k or so.

(Unless you were parodying that oft-repeated mantra about nett and gross wages, in which case I'm beginning to get worried about your sudden interest in the league!)

**davidatrb** · 05/10/2009, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

No tax on ten grand a year, Adam. Minimum wage is outisde the tax bracket and is E20k or so.

(Unless you were parodying that oft-repeated mantra about nett and gross wages, in which case I'm beginning to get worried about your sudden interest in the league!)

Forget about the 10K. I said that I would do it. It's not relevant to any of the points I make after that. I wish I never said it

**Titan** · 05/10/2009, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Are we talking ten grand before or after tax?

If you were on 10K a year you wouldn't be liable to pay tax.

So back on topic. Is there going to be a change of format or not?

How about this?

One season
One division
24 teams
2 sections of 12
Play the teams in your section twice
Play the teams in the other section once
Total 36 games each (18 home 18 away including playoffs)
Top 8 teams in each section make up following years Premier division
remaining 8 teams plus 4-8 others make up following years 1st division
Two leg play offs to determine overall final position

Sorted lets go to the pub!

**John83** · 05/10/2009, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by davidatrb

... I wish I never said it

Ah, I see you posted something facetious that PS jumped on.

If the league clubs could successfully go full time pro on the kind of budgets which have been mentioned here, Shams would be full time pro.

**pineapple stu** · 05/10/2009, 10:44 AM

Maybe jokes don't come across well on the internet. I think it's fair to assume this isn't being facetious -

Originally Posted by davidatrb

If I was to choose between working in a shop for 35K or playing football for 10K, I would play football.

Rent a small apartment. Shop at Tescos. Drive an old banger. Get a second job.

It's a short career, I'd manage for a few years or so like that - just like regular ppl manage at college for four years on next to nothing.

But anyways, if it's been retracted, we can forgive and forget.

I think then the money issue has arrived at this point -

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And then there's also the fact that you can earn more money by playing part-time. What's the big incentive to go full-time?

Whereas the format issue was, I think, cleared up by MariborKev earlier in the thread (i.e. the article was nonsense)

**Bluebeard** · 05/10/2009, 12:18 PM

10K pa is too little to live on - that wouldn't even pay for a First Division quality WAG? And as we all know, the First is a depressing muddy hole you just cannot get out of, with b*gger all grass on the pitch, and about six men and a dog watching on from the sidelines...

**dahamsta** · 05/10/2009, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

No tax on ten grand a year, Adam. Minimum wage is outisde the tax bracket and is E20k or so.

You'll pay PAYE and PRSI on any wage, won't you?

**pineapple stu** · 05/10/2009, 1:11 PM

Nope. At minimum wage, your tax credits cover all your PAYE. Your first E127 (I think) or pay a week is PRSI free. That comes to E6,600, so there'll be some small PRSI, but E150 would be as much as it'd get.

Your employer would still have to pay ER's PRSI obviously.

**dahamsta** · 05/10/2009, 2:19 PM

That's the point though stu, it's not 10 grand to the employer.

I don't know who suggesting living on 10k/year, but given what I pay myself - very little, to keep overheads down on the business - I don't think anyone could live comforably on it. You'd want to to be very committed to the game, and given Ireland's level, who would?

(No offense to Irish football in general intended, see my previous posts for context.)

adam

**pineapple stu** · 05/10/2009, 2:32 PM

Agree about the cost to the employer obviously.

Take a squad of 16 full-time players and three coaching staff - no other players at all, no reserve team, no nothing. Pay them an average of E40k per year, E50k a year for the coaches (being older and much less secure in their job) and you're talking a wage bill alone of E875k (E16k a week, not the E12k a week originally suggested). Assume that's 65% of your costs, and you get a total income needed to cover everything of E1.35m. Again, your A-team, U-20s and fringe squad players are all amateur on that. Rovers are apparently turning over E1.3m. That's where full-time football in this country stands.

**davidatrb** · 05/10/2009, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

That's the point though stu, it's not 10 grand to the employer.

I don't know who suggesting living on 10k/year, but given what I pay myself - very little, to keep overheads down on the business - I don't think anyone could live comforably on it. You'd want to to be very committed to the game, and given Ireland's level, who would?

(No offense to Irish football in general intended, see my previous posts for context.)

adam

Nobody is suggesting paying pro footballers 10K per year. I merely said I would jump at the chance to play for that. It's an irrelevant point and I regret putting it in!

**Ezeikial** · 05/10/2009, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Agree about the cost to the employer obviously.

Take a squad of 16 full-time players and three coaching staff - no other players at all, no reserve team, no nothing. Pay them an average of E40k per year, E50k a year for the coaches (being older and much less secure in their job) and you're talking a wage bill alone of E875k (E16k a week, not the E12k a week originally suggested). Assume that's 65% of your costs, and you get a total income needed to cover everything of E1.35m. Again, your A-team, U-20s and fringe squad players are all amateur on that. Rovers are apparently turning over E1.3m. That's where full-time football in this country stands.

Perhaps you could clarify - there seems to be some gaps in your figures:

16 x 40k = 640k
3 x 50k = 150k
Total 790k

65% = required turnover of �1,215,000 (based on 65% including coaches in 2010)
Equivilant Weekly player cost -over 52 weeks = 12k or over 42 weeks = 15k (not that the weekly equivilant is relevant)

If you reduce player and coaching costs by 12.5% (16 players x 35k average, coaches total 131k) this reduces the cost by almost �100,000, and crucially the turnover / revenue required for 65% complaince reduces by �152,000 to �1,063,000.

This makes it feasible for more clubs. For example the current top 5 clubs plus Sligo and St Pats (if there was no historic debt or other special circumstances) could possibly operate at this level or close to it. Alternatively a mix of full time and part time could be feasible.

**dahamsta** · 05/10/2009, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by davidatrb

Nobody is suggesting paying pro footballers 10K per year. I merely said I would jump at the chance to play for that. It's an irrelevant point and I regret putting it in!

No offense, but you should; it's not irrelevant, it's illogical. How would you survive?

**Schumi** · 05/10/2009, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by davidatrb

If I was to choose between working in a shop for 35K or playing football for 10K, I would play football.

I know you're not being serious about that but the option is there to do both if you play part-time which must be a better option all round. If I was good enough to play at LOI level, I'd jump at it even at small money but I wouldn't want to rely on it to eat.