IFA sticks with Windsor Park

[punkrocket]

So the IFA have abandoned any policy to attract supporters in the north who are not comfortable with going to Windsor Park. Is this a mistake? Yes it is the cheapest option but many Glens fans, for example, do not go to NI matches at WP on principle and with plans for a 20,000 capacity revamp will it ever be filled for a league match? Most league games at Windsor already feel like like the tumbleweed is bouncing around with the size that it is now.
For the benefit of the league the contract for the use of Windsor for the internationals will have to be redrawn with an equitable distribution of profits benefitting all clubs or Linfield will just pull further away from everyone else.

[Gather round]

So the IFA have abandoned any policy to attract supporters in the north who are not comfortable with going to Windsor Park

Er, no. They have (sensibly) confirmed a policy to invest in the best available option. The Maze plan was an absurdly expensive white elephant; other sites in Belfast city centre (Ormeau Park, Queen's/ Titanic Island, Blanchflower Park by the airport would also have been costly, difficult to get planning consent for, and likely opposed by local residents. Windsor can be refurbed to an adequate 20,000 for £20 million. That will be fine for NI's needs.

I acknowledge the uncomfortable supporters in the North as you call them, and reckon they can be persuaded to come along. If not, it's a shame but we'll concentrate on those who do.

Is this a mistake? Yes it is the cheapest option but many Glens fans, for example, do not go to NI matches at WP on principle and with plans for a 20,000 capacity revamp will it ever be filled for a league match?

Not sure I'm with you here. Are you suggesting that NI should build a new stadium for internationals because a few Glens fans don't like Windsor? Evidence suggested they were even less keen on a long journey to an empty field well beyond Lisburn.

No, Linfield- Glens derbies on Boxing Day won't get 20,000. NI against England or Spain probably will.

Most league games at Windsor already feel like like the tumbleweed is bouncing around with the size that it is now

That's not a reason not to redevelop Windsor. See below.

For the benefit of the league the contract for the use of Windsor for the internationals will have to be redrawn with an equitable distribution of profits benefitting all clubs or Linfield will just pull further away from everyone else

Details remain to be confirmed but in practice there will be a new licence. I suspect it will give effective part-ownership of the ground to the IFA (thus benefitting all clubs as you hope).

[MariborKev]

I acknowledge the uncomfortable supporters in the North as you call them, and reckon they can be persuaded to come along. If not, it's a shame but we'll concentrate on those who do.

GR,

As a northern Catholic who attended Windsor regularly in the mid-late 90s(we had a block booking, and went when the games didn't clash with ROI), I always thought the stadium issue was down the list of priorities.

Personally, I think the anthem is a major bone of contention.

Windsor being redeveloped is better than the plethora of "plans" that have been floating about for the last few years. Hopefully some of the money left over can fund the redevelopment of the Brandywell.

[Gather round]

As a northern Catholic who attended Windsor regularly in the mid-late 90s(we had a block booking, and went when the games didn't clash with ROI), I always thought the stadium issue was down the list of priorities

Fair enough. Leaving aside broad political issues for a moment, there are clearly major problems with Windsor. Largely to do with engineering- it's ramshackle and might fall down in the next few years without the refurb

On the other hand, it isn't that difficult/ expensive to do a 20,000 stadium on an existing site. Look at Notts County or Tranmere Rovers in England, say.

Personally, I think the anthem is a major bone of contention

Understood. Albeit for slightly different reasons I think we must change it. Again, apart from broad political issues I don't like using the same tune as two other teams, Britain as a whole and England.

Danny boy or something like Ireland's Call would do if we can't have my favorites (Alternative Ulster/ Gloria/ Pearly Spencer/ Teenage kicks etc.)

Hopefully some of the money left over can fund the redevelopment of the Brandywell

Agreed. I'd be glad to see a NI full international friendly in Derry, as I've said here before. Much better than a field nowhere near Lisburn.

[Mayo Red]

Just a small observation I had when watching some of the Slovakia match the other night, maybe it's just me but the floodlighting in Windsor Park seems poor when compared to other stadiums that host International Football. I know UEFA have guidelines for the floodlighting of grounds so I presume they meet the requirement for International Football but they still seem poor, is it to do with their placement or something?

[ifk101]

I don't like using the same tune as two other teams, Britain as a whole and England.

Don't forget Liechtenstein

[Gather round]

maybe it's just me but the floodlighting in Windsor Park seems poor when compared to other stadiums that host International Football. I know UEFA have guidelines for the floodlighting of grounds so I presume they meet the requirement for International Football but they still seem poor, is it to do with their placement or something?

Can't say I'd ever noticed a problem with them.

Don't forget Liechtenstein

Indeed. I'm surprised it's the 'Deutschen' Rhein, mind. They don't even share a border with Germany.

[punkrocket]

Er, no. They have (sensibly) confirmed a policy to invest in the best available option.

I don't agree that it is the best option but would grant that it is the cheapest but is that always the criteria that should always govern such decisions. The economic impact of developing a new stadium at The North Foreshore on the area would be enormous and totally transform the area for the better certainly much more than the impact on the Village/Lisburn rd area that a £20 million revamp would have. The land belongs to Belfast City council who are keen on regenerating the whole north foreshore, it has good road links and a rail halt could be easily developed as part of the project. WP is close to the M1 but the roads closer to the ground are a warren with poor parking with many local residents far from happy with the current situation never mind a future scenario of 20,000 turning up(be that on a very rare occasion).

"The Maze plan was an absurdly expensive white elephant"

I dont think that I mentioned the Maze.

"other sites in Belfast city centre (Ormeau Park, Queen's/ Titanic Island, Blanchflower Park by the airport would also have been costly, difficult to get planning consent for, and likely opposed by local residents."

As I said above there are many local residents in the Lisburn Rd area who are far from happy with the few thousand football fans who turn up now choking up the area. No one lives anywhere near the North Foreshore.

"I acknowledge the uncomfortable supporters in the North as you call them, and reckon they can be persuaded to come along. If not, it's a shame but we'll concentrate on those who do."

So tough s**t on them? hardly an inclusive policy to be adopting.


"Not sure I'm with you here. Are you suggesting that NI should build a new stadium for internationals because a few Glens fans don't like Windsor? Evidence suggested they were even less keen on a long journey to an empty field well beyond Lisburn."

Glens fans, reds fans etc etc. It's the lack of inclusiveness and again, I didnt mention the Maze

"No, Linfield- Glens derbies on Boxing Day won't get 20,000. NI against England or Spain probably will."

The biggest league game of the season wont fill it never mind one on a wet Tuesday evening against Dungannon (no offence Dungannon)? How often does NI play against the likes of England or Spain, maybe a few times more than usual recently but you really think that it's an efficient use of resources to enlarge the place for the odd match every few years.



"That's not a reason not to redevelop Windsor."

Yes it is -a waste of scant resources which would be better off going elsewhere.


"Details remain to be confirmed but in practice there will be a new licence. I suspect it will give effective part-ownership of the ground to the IFA (thus benefitting all clubs as you hope)."

We will wait and see how that turns out. If the IFA's track record is anything to go by, 100 year contarcs and the like, I wouldn't hold my breath. I agree that there will probably be some benefit to all clubs but equitable benefit to all? I can see Linfireld still getting the lions share of any benefits so cementing their hegemony.
As it stands Linfield have home advantage for the Irish Cup final as well, I can't see that changing either.

Now that's off my chest can anyone show me how to put quotations in those nice wee grey boxes please.

[punkrocket]

I think I can see what is happening with this grey box thing. Trial and error, the only way to live.

[Schumi]

just put [QUOTE*] before what you want in a box and [/QUOTE] after it. Leave out the * to get it to work.

[MariborKev]

Fair enough. Leaving aside broad political issues for a moment, there are clearly major problems with Windsor. Largely to do with engineering- it's ramshackle and might fall down in the next few years without the refurb

On the other hand, it isn't that difficult/ expensive to do a 20,000 stadium on an existing site. Look at Notts County or Tranmere Rovers in England, say

Agreed, but would hardly need £20m would it?

South Stand and what was the "Family Stand" with the scoreboard are obviously the first priority.

KOP is fine and the North Stand would be the last stage in any redevelopment surely?

[ifk101]

.... the North Stand would be the last stage in any redevelopment surely?

No expert on Windsor Park but hasn't there been issues surrounding the roof on the North Stand?

[Gather round]

I don't agree that it is the best option but would grant that it is the cheapest but is that always the criteria that should always govern such decisions

I mentioned other criteria above- planning, access, wider party politics, overall economic situation. Considering all factors, I think refurbishing Windsor is best.

The economic impact of developing a new stadium at The North Foreshore on the area would be enormous and totally transform the area for the better certainly much more than the impact on the Village/Lisburn rd area that a £20 million revamp would have

As a local (from Duncairn Gardens originally) I would very much like the North Foreshore to be regenerated. But...the cost would be a lot more than £20 million.

WP is close to the M1 but the roads closer to the ground are a warren with poor parking with many local residents far from happy with the current situation never mind a future scenario of 20,000 turning up(be that on a very rare occasion)

Points taken about Windsor's access and local residents. Car parking can be improved- there is land available within short walking distance of the stadium. Do you have links for the local dissatisfaction (not denying it exists, you tend to it around every ground near housing areas)?

Given that NI had won eight and drawn the other of the last nine home qualifiers before Wednesday, 20,000 crowds for many of them sound quite reasonable. Of course results may fall away in EC 2012, these things tend to be cyclical for smaller countries. But 20,000 capacity for a projected average crowd of 15,000 sounds reasonable to me.

I dont think that I mentioned the Maze

No, but it's crucial to the debate. The white elephant in the room, if you like

We were told that the Maze (which everyone accepts would have cost well over £100 million was a done deal and inevitable. There are no plans for any new stadia in north Belfast bar Crues' projected move next door into the Grove.

So tough s**t on them? hardly an inclusive policy to be adopting

You what? I said I was confident many of them could be persuaded to come along. So basically the opposite of "tough ****" ...

Glens fans, reds fans etc etc. It's the lack of inclusiveness

Most Glens and Reds fans are quite content to watch club games at Windsor, and indeed international matches if they are NI fans. So what exactly is your evidence for "lack of inclusiveness"?

The biggest league game of the season wont fill it never mind one on a wet Tuesday evening against Dungannon (no offence Dungannon)? How often does NI play against the likes of England or Spain, maybe a few times more than usual recently but you really think that it's an efficient use of resources to enlarge the place for the odd match every few years

The stadium will be improved to make it suitable for bigger crowds at internationals (see above for likely demand in recent seasons), cup finals and big two derbies. Away fans brought by Dungannon are irrelevant (again, no offence), so why mention them?

Yes it is -a waste of scant resources which would be better off going elsewhere

I've explained above that you are not comparing like with like. £20 million wouldn't fully clean up the North Foreshore, let alone build a stadium on it.

We will wait and see how that turns out. If the IFA's track record is anything to go by, 100 year contarcs and the like, I wouldn't hold my breath

I doubt anything will happen quickly, apparently Stormont isn't likely to consider any detailed plans until the end of this year, so God knows when any building work will start. And of course there's an economic downturn. But I think you can be reassured that the IFA, Linfield and other parties won't have any more arcane contracts as in the past.

I agree that there will probably be some benefit to all clubs but equitable benefit to all? I can see Linfireld still getting the lions share of any benefits so cementing their hegemony

I didn't say it would be equitable. Assuming you mean equal sums of money, as long as Linfield retain at least part-ownership of Windsor they'll earn more income from it than other clubs. To reflect their maintenance bills and so on.

As it stands Linfield have home advantage for the Irish Cup final as well, I can't see that changing either

It's by far the biggest stadium, so of course you'd expect it to host the biggest matches. If Linfield continue to play their home matches in it (whether as owner or not), they'll have an advantage. But of course their biggest advantage is in having many more fans than any other club.

Agreed, but would hardly need £20m would it?

South Stand and what was the "Family Stand" with the scoreboard are obviously the first priority.

KOP is fine and the North Stand would be the last stage in any redevelopment surely?

Maybe with recent deflation/ stagflation? that cost will fall a bit

I think the broad plan in order of priority is:

1 new build at east end, to replace demolished railway stand
2 demolish and rebuild south stand
3 refurbish existing kop and north stands

No expert on Windsor Park but hasn't there been issues surrounding the roof on the North Stand?

Yes, probably nearing end of its realistic shelf-life without major repair. Over the years I've heard talk of concrete cancer as well. And as for the fixtures and fittings, there are too few toilets etc.

[punkrocket]

I would very much like the North Foreshore to be regenerated. But...the cost would be a lot more than £20 million.

Of course it would be more than that, but the economic long term benefits for the area would make it worthwhile. You've got to speculate to accumulate.

But 20,000 capacity for a projected average crowd of 15,000 sounds reasonable to me.

Yes, results and popularity have been comparatively good over the last couple of campaigns but in very recent living memory results and popularity were dire. There have been occasions during this current good run of form that the ground wasn't full so waht happens when the wheel turns again? I think averages of 15,000 are ambitious.

If not, it's a shame but we'll concentrate on those who do.

Fair enough it's not quite tough s***, but it's hardly reaching out with open arms.

So what exactly is your evidence for "lack of inclusiveness"?

Mostly anecdotal I'm afraid, I personally know a few Glens fans who are also NI fans and they bitterly resent internationals being held at WP as going there would profit Linfield FC. They will go when the Glens play there though to support their team against Linfield. Maybe not the most holistic approach but whilst this is a bit extreme it is understandable. Windsor feels more like Linfield's place more than NI's place. I also know nationalists who will watch NI play on the box but wont go near Windsor but let's not get into all that.

Away fans brought by Dungannon are irrelevant (again, no offence), so why mention them?

I wasn't referring to the away fans likey to attend I was talking about any fans for the less attractive fixtures.

I didn't say it would be equitable. Assuming you mean equal sums of money, as long as Linfield retain at least part-ownership of Windsor they'll earn more income from it than other clubs. To reflect their maintenance bills and so on.

I would have no problem with Linfield getting enough extra to pay the bills but if it is more than that then it discriminates against other clubs.

But of course their biggest advantage is in having many more fans than any other club.

And you dont think that this has anything to do with the success that they have been able to buy for themselves over the years. Man U also seem to have more fans than other clubs for some reason.

I think the broad plan in order of priority is:

1 new build at east end, to replace demolished railway stand
2 demolish and rebuild south stand
3 refurbish existing kop and north stands

Thats the whole ground relaced for £20 million??
I think the south stand is a Bradford type disaster waiting to happen, a bit less so now with the smoking ban.

Any Progress yet Gatherround on the new Seaview?

[Gather round]

Of course it would be more than that, but the economic long term benefits for the area would make it worthwhile. You've got to speculate to accumulate

Indeed, but redeveloping BT3 (whether speculatively or not) for £200 million or whatever doesn't preclude spending £20 million on Windsor Park now. Every notional plan for a new national stadium that I've seen has included a capacity of 20,000- some much more than that. What do you think is a viable figure?

There have been occasions during this current good run of form that the ground wasn't full so waht happens when the wheel turns again? I think averages of 15,000 are ambitious

If results fall away and average crowds fall to 10,000 we'll have a half empty stadium. When results improve again the average will rise. Crowds actually rose during the Euro 2004 qualifying disaster, so I'm confident of the higher figures quoted above.

Fair enough it's not quite tough s***, but it's hardly reaching out with open arms

Actually, it is. I said I was confident fans who have drifted away (whether nationalist background or otherwise) could be enticed back. The Football for All campign (widely documented) and anecdotal evidence from me and other gnarled veterans suggest the atmosphere is better than for decades. I think the onus is on you to suggest what specifically needs to be done to be more welcoming.

Mostly anecdotal I'm afraid, I personally know a few Glens fans who are also NI fans and they bitterly resent internationals being held at WP as going there would profit Linfield FC

I also know one or two who say this, but I don't take it or them particularly seriously. None of them have come up with a compelling better alternative.

Windsor feels more like Linfield's place more than NI's place

Not to me, and I've been going to both club, cup final and international games there since 1970. As I've said above, there are long-term issues about ownership, responsibility for development etc., but these can be resolved.

I also know nationalists who will watch NI play on the box but wont go near Windsor but let's not get into all that

Why not? Let's hear why they won't. If it's because they support the RoI, or don't want to watch a mediocre NI side, that's fine. If it's because they fear a cauldron of sectarian hatred (sorry for the cliche), then frankly there's limited point in rational discussion with them, let alone offering open arms.

If it's somehwere in between (uncomfortableness with flags, anthems etc.) there is room for compromise. Let's hear suggestions?

I wasn't referring to the away fans likey to attend I was talking about any fans for the less attractive fixtures

Even less attractive NI friendlies during a poor run will attract a crowd too big for any other stadium in NI at present. The size of the stadium should reflect projected average and median crowds, not the likely lowest.

I would have no problem with Linfield getting enough extra to pay the bills but if it is more than that then it discriminates against other clubs

Agreed in principle. New contract should resolve hopefully, as mentioned above.

And you dont think that this has anything to do with the success that they have been able to buy for themselves over the years

Yes, I do think Linfield have benefitted more than they might reasonably have done in the past. It's done, let's move on.

Man U also seem to have more fans than other clubs for some reason

Big club in big city; past success; sympathy after Munich deaths; European cups; numerous prem titles. Most of the above achieved before they started hosting England games regularly. Don't see the parallel, to be honest.

Thats the whole ground relaced for £20 million??

Yes, see recent BBC reports.

I think the south stand is a Bradford type disaster waiting to happen, a bit less so now with the smoking ban

Everyone agrees it needs to be replaced. The fire engine on standby is a scare story.

Any Progress yet Gatherround on the new Seaview?

Basic plan is two new 600-seat modular stands for the Shore Road end and social club side of the existing Seaview. If they move elsewhere (say the Grove, or up near the Valley centre as previously suggested) the stands can go too.

Co-ordinator for the project is club director Mark Langhammer who was also a Labour councillor on Newtownabbey BC.

[Mr_Parker]

Most Glens and Reds fans are quite content to watch club games at Windsor, and indeed international matches if they are NI fans. So what exactly is your evidence for "lack of inclusiveness"?

When they visit Windsor they do so as opposition fans and to use their attendance at Windsor to make your point of Windsor being 'inclusive' is misplaced.

Also in response to others, it really hasn't much to do with Anthems or the flag that is flown either. The problem with Windsor for many Nationalists/Catholics is the baggage that comes with it. Wether people want to accept it or not, that is the major problem. The IFA acknowledge that problem existed following research that was carried out by third parties and hence why they were keen to move from Windsor recognising the importance of making following NI more appealing to all. However there was people within the IFA who refused to acknowledge the problem and some who were/are quite happy with the status quo. They have won the day. The chance to make relatively quick progress on changing peoples opinions of the IFA/NI set-up has been lost imo. It will take at least 2 generational changes before they even have a chance to change the minds of those who experienced Windsor during the darker days and have told and 'educated' the next generation.

[Gather round]

When they visit Windsor they do so as opposition fans and to use their attendance at Windsor to make your point of Windsor being 'inclusive' is misplaced

While Cliftonville fans are clearly more likely to support the South, most Glentoran fans support Northern Ireland and almost all NI fans prepared to attend will watch games at Windsor even if they don't like contributing to Linfield. I think the point is fair. Overall, I'm confident that FFA and other efforts are making Windsor (and supporting the NI team generally) more inclusive.

The problem with Windsor for many Nationalists/Catholics is the baggage that comes with it. Wether people want to accept it or not, that is the major problem

I accept that it's a problem for you (plural); I don't agree that it's reasonable to let that dictate above all other considerations. Windsor both as a venue and a symbol with 'baggage' is not as it was.

The IFA acknowledge that problem existed following research that was carried out by third parties and hence why they were keen to move from Windsor recognising the importance of making following NI more appealing to all

The IFA bought the bullsh*t about a 'free' build at Long Kesh, ignoring what a huge majority of fans (ie, their constituency) thought. A stadium there- ruinously expensive, inaccessible, poor facilities, pointlessly twice as large as necessary- would have been more appealing to basically nobody actually wanting to go to matches.

However there was people within the IFA who refused to acknowledge the problem and some who were/are quite happy with the status quo. They have won the day

I doubt anybody is happy with the statuo quo- a ramshackle, inadequate stadium. Many- including me- would actually have preferred an alternative venue close to Belfast city centre, but both the absence of any detailed plans, and the current recession, both make that unrealistic at the moment.

The chance to make relatively quick progress on changing peoples opinions of the IFA/NI set-up has been lost imo

What specifically do you think would have tangibly changed those opinions? The Maze? Another site in Belfast? Something more imaginative?

It will take at least 2 generational changes before they even have a chance to change the minds of those who experienced Windsor during the darker days and have told and 'educated' the next generation

You're ruling out any change of attitude for 50 years? Why so confident of your pessimism? We're talking about a better atmosphere at football matches, not realigning the map of Europe...

[galwayjames]

Leaving everything else aside, Windsor would be a more than adequate stadium for NI if the Railway End was developed and the North Stand too. I'm not sure the Kop Stand needs to be redeveloped though, or the South Stand.

[Gather round]

Leaving everything else aside, Windsor would be a more than adequate stadium for NI if the Railway End was developed and the North Stand too. I'm not sure the Kop Stand needs to be redeveloped though, or the South Stand

James- are you reversing the North and South stands here? The South is the much older and more ramshackle.

[Mr_Parker]

While Cliftonville fans are clearly more likely to support the South, most Glentoran fans support Northern Ireland and almost all NI fans prepared to attend will watch games at Windsor even if they don't like contributing to Linfield. I think the point is fair. Overall, I'm confident that FFA and other efforts are making Windsor (and supporting the NI team generally) more inclusive.

Your point was that by their attendance at Windsor in some ways proves the 'inclusiveness' which it patently does not.


I accept that it's a problem for you (plural); I don't agree that it's reasonable to let that dictate above all other considerations. Windsor both as a venue and a symbol with 'baggage' is not as it was.

Yes but my point was regardless of what changes have happened the perception still exists.


The IFA bought the bullsh*t about a 'free' build at Long Kesh, ignoring what a huge majority of fans (ie, their constituency) thought. A stadium there- ruinously expensive, inaccessible, poor facilities, pointlessly twice as large as necessary- would have been more appealing to basically nobody actually wanting to go to matches.

A huge majority? The only research the IFA carried out was done on their behalf by PWC which found that the majority of the public favoured a move. There was no survey of 'their constituency' as you put it.

I doubt anybody is happy with the statuo quo- a ramshackle, inadequate stadium. Many- including me- would actually have preferred an alternative venue close to Belfast city centre, but both the absence of any detailed plans, and the current recession, both make that unrealistic at the moment.

There was an alternative and it was rejected.

What specifically do you think would have tangibly changed those opinions? The Maze? Another site in Belfast? Something more imaginative?

Anything but Windsor tbh.

You're ruling out any change of attitude for 50 years? Why so confident of your pessimism? We're talking about a better atmosphere at football matches, not realigning the map of Europe...

When it comes to the inbuilt attitudes of people here and how they pass that to their children it would be easier to deal with the realigning the map of Europe imo.

.....