Rudi to reform then?What other uses? Other sports already have their facilities, and are developing them (suggesting less than wholehearted commitment to new build). U2 and REM or whoever today's youth go to see ...
What other uses? Other sports already have their facilities, and are developing them (suggesting less than wholehearted commitment to new build). U2 and REM or whoever today's youth go to see aren't going to play Belfast four or five times a year just to justify a vanity project stadium.By leaving Windsor and going for a new build you will be able to attract the extra people and also make it more economically sustainable by having it available for other uses as said elsewhere
Rudi to reform then?What other uses? Other sports already have their facilities, and are developing them (suggesting less than wholehearted commitment to new build). U2 and REM or whoever today's youth go to see ...
For some technologies location is crucial. A stadium built with a wind turbine at each corner for example, would work very well on a windy lough side like the north foreshore but not at windsor where getting planning permission would also be difficlut if not impossible.I don't pretend to understand the engineering, but why can't they incorporate that new technology?
There are a whole range of technologies which work better for a bespoke structure than retro fitting an existing one although a new south stand at windsor could indeed take advantage of it's south facing aspect. Other technologies could also be retrofitted but will never be as efficient or economical as a new build project.
I was also talking about the flexibility in useage of a new stadium, a retractable roof increases the range of possible uses, banks of seating can be added or removed as necessary for spectator/ participants demands etc etc. In Japan theres a stadium where the whole pitch slides outside on a big shelf!! There are lots of possiblities.
Better design can mean the stadium can be used by a a wider range of people and therefore more of an asset for everyone. Concerts are only one idea, what about horse shows, exhibitions, conferences, mad men jumping over burning things in cars with big wheels etc etc. I don't know the point is that windsor will only ever have a very limited utility to a very limited set of people on a very limited number of occasions and a well designed stadium could be used much more regularly by a wider range of people(taxpayers).
A north foreshore stadium would be a fantastic sight for anyone coming down the hill into belfast on the M2.
Thanks. I accept that any new structure will have some engineering, energy conservation and other advantages over an existing building. But think of the new stands at Windsor as a halfway house between shoring up ramshackle facilities and an entirely new build.Originally Posted by punkrocket
Belfast doesn't need (ie, there's no real demand for) an equivalent to Wembley, Cardiff Millennium or anything state of the art in Japan. All the events you mention can be staged either in exisiting facilities or in Windsor after redevelopment. Or even in other stadia. Any notional new stadium would therefore have little, if any greater utility than Windsor.I was also talking about the flexibility in useage of a new stadium, a retractable roof increases the range of possible uses, banks of seating can be added or removed as necessary for spectator/ participants demands etc etc. In Japan theres a stadium where the whole pitch slides outside on a big shelf!! There are lots of possiblities. Better design can mean the stadium can be used by a a wider range of people and therefore more of an asset for everyone. Concerts are only one idea, what about horse shows, exhibitions, conferences, mad men jumping over burning things in cars with big wheels etc etc. I don't know the point is that windsor will only ever have a very limited utility to a very limited set of people on a very limited number of occasions and a well designed stadium could be used much more regularly by a wider range of people(taxpayers)
Indeed, though that's hardly a compelling reason to build one. A hologram on advertising hoarding would be a lot cheaper.A north foreshore stadium would be a fantastic sight for anyone coming down the hill into belfast on the M2
What was the last time that windsor was used for any purpose other than a football match?
Cheaper aint always better.A hologram on advertising hoarding would be a lot cheaper
They may well be the people who use it, and who will continue to use it, but they are not the people who will be payingto replace it. They are asking the state to do it and there isn't many votes in this project, especially in the middle of a recession. There are bitter pills to be swallowed on water rates etc and this work will have to be done in the middle of hard times ahead
If by multi-sport you want to include GAA, as a republican i happily admit it is a non-runner. Pitch dimensions make it impossible, It would be cheaper to build 2 stadiumsObviously building a new multi-use stadium is a separate and wider issue.
I disagree about rugby. Ravenhill is like a club ground compared to stadia like liberty stadium and Thomond Park. The Ulster branch are sticking with Ravenhill but if there is a 20,000 - 25,000 stadium in Belfast they would be insane not to use it Heineken cup games etc. We might also get the odd Ireland game once the deal with Aviva runs out and we are capable of having one without a squabble over anthemsSee above. Rugby and other sports don't need a new stadium, evidence being their lack on interest in lobbying for one, development of their exisiting facilities etc.
It certainly is short of one. Casement isn't suitable given its lack of seating, the Odyssey is too small for the U2's and Metallica's of this world. I see no reason at all why they wouldn't come to Belfast.Is Belfast really short of an outdoor concert venue? If you don't like Windsor, wouldn't Casement or Ravenhill or the Botanic Gardens do? I don't watch much stadium rock these days, but I'd have guessed that any act likely to fill a stadium would be far more likely just to play Croke (or Lansdowne when it re-opens) in Ireland.
I would prefer leaving Windsor ramshackle to fixing it. Ultimately although I want the best for my city I won't loose much sleep over Northern Ireland fans watching a match in a wooden stand with a fire engine out backYour opinion does carry that same weight as Kennedy's. You want a new stadium in Belfast? Fine, vote and lobby your councillors and MLAs for it. Prefer to leave Windsor ramshackle? Ditto.
This is Northern Ireland, and if this proposal is going to go ahead it must go through the executive/assembly, which means Sinn Fein signing off on it. I can't see their voters being happy at millions going to repair Windsor ParkObviously they should lobby for what their customers want, including public money. I believe there will be public support for this investment, even if the choice of other developers at which to shop has been slashed by the recession. OK, it won't be 100% public support, but this is Northern Ireland after all...
He has seen no violence apart from that game, although sectarianism remains a serious issue amongst your fans. He has only very nice things to say about your players, and got to hold the World Cup when it was over for the Wales game (jammy wee ****e).Interesting points about security and access. I think these are less of a problem than you suggest. Car parking does need improvement, but Windsor is within walking distance of the centre (two miles). Without being trite about the riot at the Poland game, those kicking it off would have been able to find the necessary dark alleys somewhere else if they wanted. And in crude cost terms we can't reasonably plan a football stadium in Belfast on the basis that Polish/ English/ whoever's hooligans visit once every five years. I expect your brother reassured you that most other recent internationals/ cup fianls/ big two derbies have passed off largely preacefully?
The point about taking the stadium out of an area like the village is that there are no alleyways to hid in. Most modern stadiums have very little around them for a couple of hundred yards. If you have organised rioting such as is an issue in England they will arrange to meet somewhere and get down to it, but it takes 2 to tango and, for all their faults, I don't think that is an issue with NI fans. Which is why the Poland riots were mainly between the cops and the poles. Most of your fans, with a few exceptions, got themselves offside when they saw what was heppening. If that riot had been on an open piece of ground it would have been contained much quicker and easier by the police.
I have no idea, they seem like the most obvious sites in the world to me, and Belfast Council own them bothWhy haven't these sites been discussed along with Ormeau Park/ Mays Field/ North Foreshore/ Blanchflower Park etc.? Again, genuine question.
aww come on, even to 'our wee government' £7m is loose change. Just last week they found more than that for SPED because that fat f*cker Nolan was yapping on about SPED running out of cashPersonally, I'd have little problem with a stadium at one end of Boucher Road rather than the other. Even if I don't share your confidence that it would solve the political issues. As for infrastructure for GAA matches- you've already got that a mile away at Casement. £27 million is a lot more than £20 million (assuming that new build costs would be similar to Swansea's).
Most of it is but the 2 i mentioned are council owned parks. One of them is football pitches which i doubt are ever used given their location in the middle of an industrial estate.Strictly speaking, aren't the other Boucher Road sites brownfield (ie previously used for industry/ warehousing etc.)?
We couldn't do a worse job than Ukraine-Poland. you would be surprised what we could do between us.Ha ha. Dublin is already getting a UEFA cup final; the South could quite easily host the U-21 tournament (LoI grounds with a showpiece final), the U-19 in 2005 went well, hopefully Brandywell will be redeveloped. But...there's about as much chance of the senior European championships happening in Ireland as of San Marino playing in them.
Its a rural village 3m people can drive to after work, put in 3 hours training and be in the house for 11pm. Its signifigance is it will be a rural village with 3 motorways going into it. Someone will take advantage of that fact. If sport doesn't grab it it will be turned into another massive miles from anywhere retail park.Beautifully evocative description. But if you want 3,000,000 people to use facilities, you don't put them in Aughnacloy. Much as I love it, it's a rural village.
They are preaching to the converted, as in your synopsis any new stadium will be designed with the North's fans in mind, which conflicts in these days of pragmatic austerity which would surely mean it will have to have other uses beyond a venue for a German aristocracy tribute song a few times a year.
So to this end a ground with, er, 'wider' appeal (In your case, you'd favour surely ??) and with modern facilties/access isn't going to easily happen at Linfield, unless of course they make a few locals homeless?
There are other reasons as Btw has correctly identified, not least that there are other sites with much less population to be charmed into an alternative venue, as no-one is, er, living there! If he can readily identify these so easily, then I'm sure the local politicians can too.
Why the resistance to a new multi-purpose stadium anyway;it's going to be built largely out of public funds, which are only ever going to sanction more diverse use.
And that should be beyond the 1% of their population of the North, who are currently actually able to watch them in person......
Which means The IRFU & concerts are liable to be incorporated for the reasons given above, in the main by Btw.
If the North want to improve their 'legitimacy', they should be mindful of making their 'national' stadium open to all, as the IFA claim the team are. But the fans are the ones who seem paranoid towards virtually any kind of change!
As for living in the North and voting for an alternative venue there are those who are better qualified, but I'm not trolling.
Why should I care about dubious Norwegians anyway, unless of course you are talking about Tony Capaldi??
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 15/09/2009 at 9:25 AM.
What is 'obviously more important' is what is best for football ie the IFA in ensuring its best interests in the longer term. That includes all parties within their umbrella. The GAWA is only but one element of it.
Enjoy living in your bubble.
Just do a google and you with find lots of research.
Yes as BTW says there is most certainly a demand for this size of venue in Belfast. Building state of the art means that you can taylor make it to any spec you want and have it to the highest standard (finances permitting) possible. If you want to design it with an athletics track under the front rows which can be retracted when needed, then these things are possible. A brand new multi use stadium would be a great boost to all the local builders who are twiddling their thumbs at the moment and really give the economy a timely kick. A bit of ambition is needed here instead of accepting second best, which is what a tarted up windsor park would be.Belfast doesn't need (ie, there's no real demand for)......anything state of the art
No idea off-hand. Note that I'm talking about what it might attract after redevelopment. And even then, if that doesn't include a full program of concerts, car boot sales, equine shows and the like, there might just be an alternative explanation to Windsor being a cauldron of sectarian terror. You know, like all those events already being staged elsewhere?Originally Posted by punkrocket
Yes, we'll all be paying to replace it. The state will invest in a facility used by a significant proportion of the population and with the broad support of a much larger group. Successive sports minister Campbell and McCausland don't need to worry unduly about the votes of 13,000 fans going to Windsor, but they do need to realise who would take the blame if NI were left with no football stadium to play in. Let alone if they sanctioned the waste of much larger sums of money on white elephant vanity projects.Originally Posted by back to Walsall
Of course I take your points about the wider recession, tax changes and increases etc. As a result the refurb won't happen overnight and it probably won't be ideal.
What, even in the middle of a recession?If by multi-sport you want to include GAA, as a republican i happily admit it is a non-runner. Pitch dimensions make it impossible, It would be cheaper to build 2 stadiums
As I understand it, the playing area at Windsor is just about large enough to fit a GAA pitch. Maybe someday they'll be happy to use it...
Er...there will be a 20,000 stadium. The IRFU can use it in the same way as the GAA. I don't follow rugby union so I couldn't tell you why they were so lacklustre about alternatives to Ravenhill.I disagree about rugby. Ravenhill is like a club ground compared to stadia like liberty stadium and Thomond Park. The Ulster branch are sticking with Ravenhill but if there is a 20,000 - 25,000 stadium in Belfast they would be insane not to use it Heineken cup games etc
See above. As for anthems, I would prefer 'Ireland's call' and nowt else at Ireland games, but as I say I'm not really a fan.We might also get the odd Ireland game once the deal with Aviva runs out and we are capable of having one without a squabble over anthems
You realise one contradicts the other? Such negativity, it's a shame, but if need be we'll move on without your blessing.I would prefer leaving Windsor ramshackle to fixing it. Ultimately although I want the best for my city I won't loose much sleep over Northern Ireland fans watching a match in a wooden stand with a fire engine out back
Last time I looked, Sinn Fein was claiming to be a political party of government, not a single issue pressure group to close Windsor. As part of the usual political horse-trading they will do lots of things that elements within their elecotrate will dislike. And let's be honest- a large proportion of nationalist voters, like unionists just won't get that excited about the issue.This is Northern Ireland, and if this proposal is going to go ahead it must go through the executive/assembly, which means Sinn Fein signing off on it. I can't see their voters being happy at millions going to repair Windsor Park
Ha ha. I knew we'd agree on something eventually.Just last week they found more than that for SPED because that fat f*cker Nolan was yapping on about SPED running out of cash
My mistake, I know where you mean.Most of it is but the 2 i mentioned are council owned parks. One of them is football pitches which i doubt are ever used given their location in the middle of an industrial estate
I'm afraid 2012 will be shambolic (an impression not reassured by three days in Poland recently). Ukraine's stadiums won't be ready, there aren't enough hotels, Poland has systematic violence.We couldn't do a worse job than Ukraine-Poland. you would be surprised what we could do between us
Ireland isn't going to stage a senior European championship. It's a fantasy.
The sites BTW has chosen haven't been mentioned anywhere else in the local media, by any politicians, on other web board. Anywhere. Ergo they aren't a serious alternative. As I said, I'd have no problem walking down the Boucher Road had the city council identified it as a site.Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
What are you suggesting, that they build a stadium that can hold 1.8 million people?And that should be beyond the 1% of their population of the North, who are currently actually able to watch them in person...
Windsor with its capacity increased by 50% to 20,000 will obviously be available to more people at a time. When redeveloped, it should be suitable also for a wider range of events, other sports, music, whatever. All these other things are notional maybe, but no more so than BTW's international sports centre in Aughnacloy or punkrocket's glittering superstructure looming up as you drive downhill from Glengormley.
This is simply wrong. The fans rejected one proposed change as absurd. They/ we have been debating a range of alternatives for years, hardly suggestive of paranoia.But the fans are the ones who seem paranoid towards virtually any kind of change
I think he's from Solihull actually.Why should I care about dubious Norwegians anyway, unless of course you are talking about Tony Capaldi??
Its best interests are served by ensuring it listens to its customers, lives within its means and in harmony with its neigbors. Not by pandering to unrealistic pipe-dreams.Originally Posted by Mr Parker
Thanks. Equally, enjoy your MOPERY.Enjoy living in your bubble.
Just do a google and you with find lots of research
Don't you take the research seriously enough to quote it?
It's a daydream, not something people are voting and lobbying for.
That's right, finances permitting. Finances don't permit building Fantasy Island, I'm afraid.Building state of the art means that you can taylor make it to any spec you want and have it to the highest standard (finances permitting) possible
Refurbished Windsor Park holding 20,000 is more ambitious than the present third-rate facility.A bit of ambition is needed here instead of accepting second best, which is what a tarted up windsor park would be
So you agree with most of our points then, Mr.Round??
And the only relative 'mopery' coming over in this thread is of certain fans of the North's football team. Which is fine, as just reinforces their image of paranoia to change!
I've commented where I disagree. Not necessarily in every case where your points are the usual repetitive, drearily predictable, semi-coherent sectarian nonsense
Surely the reverse? I've commented to say I'm pleased Windsor is to be redeveloped. I haven't moaned about the battle being lost (like Mr Parker), or like BTW claimed one moment that he wants the best for his home city, then in the next looked forward to its main football stadium falling down.And the only relative 'mopery' coming over in this thread is of certain fans of the North's football team
Just parroting this again and again doesn't make it any less wrong, you know.Which is fine, as just reinforces their image of paranoia to change!
What's 'sectarian' about pointing out a newer more multi-purpose stadium in a neutral area? I realise you may disagree with widening its appeal but that's fine.
No need to get up on some notional high horse and pretend your view is better, just because you claim to support the North. The same tropical bird obsession could equally be applied to your good self.
But the overall unreasonable objections do fly in the face of what the IFA claim (which I don't blame them or the players for) and hence the impression of deep paranoia. Suggest you get out more!
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 15/09/2009 at 10:54 AM.
Hah. Still they haven't noticed the National Aquatic Centre (one of the few good things to come out of Abbotstown!!) which also crept in under the radar and isn't actually a bad facility.
Was there briefly last year to see my pal's daughter competing in the National Swimming championships, including, amazingly, teams from another 'political jurisdiction'....
Surely some mistake??
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