IFA sticks with Windsor Park

[Gather round]

Your point was that by their attendance at Windsor in some ways proves the 'inclusiveness' which it patently does not

My point was that it suggested that inclusiveness, not that it proved anything. I think Windsor- and watching NI games generally- is welcoming and inclusive, although I accept that you disagree.

Yes but my point was regardless of what changes have happened the perception still exists

Again, I accept that. Apologies if I put words in your mouth, but if you are suggesting that watching matches at Windsor is widely perceived to be just like 10, 20 or 40 years ago then I suggest- based on personal experience throughout- that the perception is wrong and unreasonable.

A huge majority? The only research the IFA carried out was done on their behalf by PWC which found that the majority of the public favoured a move. There was no survey of 'their constituency' as you put it

I know a wider public opinion survey suggested enthusiasm for a new stadium in the middle of nowhere. Not that the vanity stadium would have been free, of course- the inevitable hundreds of millions for building costs, access routes etc. wasn't to be donated as a gift by some philanthropic billionaire.

You must know that Northern Ireland fans- the ones who actually go and want to keep going to matches- were at least 80% opposed to the Maze site. Maybe you'll dismiss this as anecdotal and them as a self-selecting sample, no matter. The IFA's 'consultation' of wider public opinion on a false premise while largely ignoring attending fans was a major blunder leading to much time, money and effort wasted.

There was an alternative and it was rejected

It was a dumb alternative and should have been abandoned as soon as its unpopularity was obvious. The other proposed alternatives in the city have been shown to be no more than nominal so far, and we still need a football ground.

Anything but Windsor tbh

Windsor's the only feasible alternative for the foreseeable future. Looks like we agree to differ.

When it comes to the inbuilt attitudes of people here and how they pass that to their children it would be easier to deal with the realigning the map of Europe imo

Speak for yourself. I don't think my attitudes are hidebound and I certainly wouldn't presume that someone in 50 years time would share them, as you seem to be suggesting.

[punkrocket]

I missed this earlier

Danny boy or something like Ireland's Call would do if we can't have my favorites (Alternative Ulster/ Gloria/ Pearly Spencer/ Teenage kicks etc.)

With the qualifying record that NI have had for a long while I think that Big time by Rudi would be more appropriate;

" Big time you aint no friend of mi-ine
Big time you aint no friend of mine"

It's got a good terrace stomp to it and all.

[Gather round]

Ha ha. I remember Rudi, decent band.

You also missed my asking what would be your preferred size stadium for NI to play in. Any thoughts?

[galwayjames]

You also missed my asking what would be your preferred size stadium for NI to play in. Any thoughts?

A 20,000 all-seater stadium should be the one I'd say.

[Gather round]

2,000 or 20,000?

[galwayjames]

2,000 or 20,000?

Oops 20,000 of course

[AnnaghRed]

before they even have a chance to change the minds of those who experienced Windsor during the darker days

The "darker days" as in the World cup qualifier v's scotland played under threat of a mortar attack from the provos c1981?

[Mr_Parker]

You must know that Northern Ireland fans- the ones who actually go and want to keep going to matches- were at least 80% opposed to the Maze site. Maybe you'll dismiss this as anecdotal and them as a self-selecting sample, no matter. The IFA's 'consultation' of wider public opinion on a false premise while largely ignoring attending fans was a major blunder leading to much time, money and effort wasted.

That is the biggest fallacy that has been put across in this debate over the last few years. This is not an issue that only 'belongs' to those who go to NI games. This is about what is best for the IFA as a whole. It is an issue that effects every strand of the IFA football family ie those that actually have a stake in football here.

Speak for yourself. I don't think my attitudes are hidebound and I certainly wouldn't presume that someone in 50 years time would share them, as you seem to be suggesting.

I am not speaking for myself. Previous research has clearly demonstrated that this is the case.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Obviously the IFA are just going to preach to the 'converted' by this move.
They and some of their fanbase claim they're 'open to all', but by not moving they're going to guarantee certain parties would only ever set foot in there, reluctantly at best, if at all.
Maybe they should look at the bigger picture as MP says and try to incorporate the views of as many people as possible, rather than just 15-20k football fans who after all only represent 1% of the population!
That would also include rugby and GAA fans also!

If they want to widen their appeal then they'll have to move to a 'neutral' area....
Besides the usual issues regarding their flag, anthem and certain 'attitudes' of their fanbase.

[backstothewall]

Whilst the opinions of NI fans are abviously important, they are not the be all and end all. Any new stadium will be built will also be used for Rugby and other sports, as well as concerts etc. Whilst I don't support NI, quite the opposite in fact, as one of the taxpayers who will be paying for this venture, I don't really care what NI fans want, and think my opinion should carry exactly the same weight as Raymond Kennedy. If they want a stadium to suit themselves, they should pay for it themselves. In the meantime the IFA is only a customer with no where else to shop.

Windsor simply isn't suitable, for several reasons.

1. The political stuff. I'm not going to repeat it, we all know the issues.
2. Its a security nightmare. My brother is a cop who was working the Poland game. The area it is in has to many alleyways etc to control a football riot, and given the unfortunate rise of hooliganism in Eastern Europe, this has to be considered. The potential for a(nother) mass riot between Linfield and the Glens at a future Irish Cup final is also an issue.
3. Parking. Its in the middle of an old housing estate. It is hard enough to get parked on a Wednesday afternoon, never mind if 20,000 people are trying to get parked.

There is no shortage of alternative sites owned by Belfast City Council. 2 I would suggest are either Musgrave Park or Boucher Road playing fields. these sites have several advantages over Windsor

1. Politcal issues solved
2. Excellent transport links. Both are situated between the M1 and Railway line. There is also thousands of parking spaces along Boucher Road.
3. As they are essentially greenfield sites, a brand new stadium could be thrown up quite easily. There would be no difficulties with scheduling matches during construction, and it would almost certainly work out cheaper. Liberty Stadium in Swansea for example was built in 2005 for only £27m
4. As is fairly obvious soccer/rugby isn't ideal on a pitch big enough for GAA. but given the proximity of both sites to casement park a lot of the infrastructure can be shared between the 2 stadiums.

Completely agree with what was said about the Brandywell. One day soon the FAI and IFA should start thinking about a joint bid for the European championships. with Landsowne Rd, Croke PArk, Thomond Park, a stadium in Belfast and a new Brandywell, we would be well on the way to having the facilities.

Once the new road to Derry is built the area around Aughnacloy will be about and hour away from Belfast, Derry and Dublin. Instead of building a 50m pool in Bangor, or making UUJ the sports campus for the north, for example, our governments should be working together to put all our sports facilities on one site within an hour of over 3m people. Between us (post recission) we could afford to have the likes of a velodrome, another pool, a rowing lake, an athletics stadium and all sorts of facilities for watersports, boxing etc. It would also be a great economic boost for South Tyrone, Armagh and North Monaghan. All areas which could do with it

[ArdeeBhoy]

A lot of common sense spoken there BTW.
So expect a long-winded objection from the usual suspects....

Ultimately it should be down to Northern/Irish taxpayers, as you say!
But a 'Joint' ventures facilities plan is a great idea.

However with a joint stadiums bid, knowing as we do how Inertia works at the planning stage in Ireland (and currently involving two seperate political jurisdictions) I wouldn't be too optimistic for the next 20 years or so.
Maybe a bid for 2032??

[ifk101]

So the common sense suggestion is for the Irish government to spend money that it does not have in sporting facilities located in another political jurisdiction.

Anyways seems to be plenty of (letter writing) opposition to the upgrading of Windsor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...sh/8253315.stm

[Mr_Parker]

So the common sense suggestion is for the Irish government to spend money that it does not have in sporting facilities located in another political jurisdiction.

They have in the past (and not just sporting venues) so why not in the future?

[ifk101]

They have in the past (and not just sporting venues) so why not in the future?

Negligible sums of money in comparison to what's been suggested and in the context of the current economic climate, no?

[punkrocket]

...what would be your preferred size stadium for NI to play in. Any thoughts?

I actually think that internationals could be played at a 25,000 seater stadium, but only if that stadium isn't Windsor. By leaving Windsor and going for a new build you will be able to attract the extra people and also make it more economically sustainable by having it available for other uses as said elsewhere. A well designed modern stadium can be used for a number of uses, and I'm leaving aside the rugby/gaelic games issue here, and could also have lower running costs whilst integrating technologies such as renewables and low carbon design(a consideration which is going to be more pressing for everyone whether we like it or not before too long) rather than trying to retrofit a badly located relic like Windsor.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So the common sense suggestion is for the Irish government to spend money that it does not have in sporting facilities located in another political jurisdiction.

Aye, but it's not as if they haven't wasted plenty of € in recent times, say to indirectly supply the public with plasma TVs, rather than build something concrete.....
And would be a statement of 'good faith' to the Northern population from Dublin.

[ifk101]

And would be a statement of 'good faith' to the Northern population from Dublin.

That's already been made - improved road and rail links from the border down to Dublin ensures speedy access to all the wee ones' sporting facility needs. Cead mille failte.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually IfK was hoping they could make a token contribution to a new stadium in the North, if only as it could be then used to bid possibly for major events and to promote the whole of Ireland which they would also be expected to promote.

[ifk101]

Actually IfK was hoping they could make a token contribution to a new stadium in the North, if only as it could be then used to bid possibly for major events and to promote the whole of Ireland which they would also be expected to promote.

Fair enough. But as finances are stretched at the moment, do you think they would accept Morton Stadium as our token contribution for the time being?

[Gather round]

That is the biggest fallacy that has been put across in this debate over the last few years. This is not an issue that only 'belongs' to those who go to NI games. This is about what is best for the IFA as a whole. It is an issue that effects every strand of the IFA football family ie those that actually have a stake in football here

Where the NI football team plays is obviously more important to those who watch it play than to public opinion as a whole. Of course I accept that specific groups such as local residents have a crucial interest. What's best for the IFA as a whole is that we have an adequate stadium that fans want to visit, that doesn't incovenience everyone else and which is affordable. So no fallacy. If you want to co-own the issue (or express an opinion, as I'd put it), fine. You can't reasonably expect universal agreement.

I am not speaking for myself. Previous research has clearly demonstrated that this is the case

Do you have links for this research? Genuine question, I'd like to read it. It's just that studies based on what people will think in 50 years' time strike me less as research, more clairvoyancy.

Obviously the IFA are just going to preach to the 'converted' by this move

I don't think so. While almost all NI fans I know were opposed to the Maze plan, many (including me) would have preferred a new site close to Belfast city centre, as detailed above and on previous threads. No such site attracted serious interest for development, then the recession kicked in. The redevelopment of Windsor is seen as less than ideal but realistic by many of us.

They and some of their fanbase claim they're 'open to all', but by not moving they're going to guarantee certain parties would only ever set foot in there, reluctantly at best, if at all

The IFA and NI fans are guaranteeing nothing of the sort. If 'certain parties' continue to boycott Windsor that's a shame. Let's move on.

Maybe they should look at the bigger picture as MP says and try to incorporate the views of as many people as possible, rather than just 15-20k football fans who after all only represent 1% of the population!

They (the IFA) have done. Their commitment to the Maze plan was foolish, but it could have been worse- not as if we wasted £100 million building the thing. Since then, as I said above, no one has actually been able to put up a sustainable bid for a new build elsewhere in the city. If anyone had done so, we might now be looking at building work in say, the brownfield/ ex-leisure centre area of Ormeau Park.

The ways to incorporate wider views as you suggest are clear enough, and haven't been ignored. To build a stadium in the city, you also need planning consent and co-operation from local residents. business etc. To spend tens of millions on new facilities, you need to get elected in the first place. If those facilities are ludicrously wasteful, as a local politician you can expect not to be re-elected.

As for the 1% dig, clearly far more than that support the NI football. Almost certainly far more than the proportion of the electorate who will decide how to vote based mainly on whether Windsor closes or not.

That would also include rugby and GAA fans also!

The GAA and IRFU were consulted. Clearly they weren't that bothered. Presumably because neither of them feel they need a new stadium at the Maze, in Nelfast or anywhere else.

If they want to widen their appeal then they'll have to move to a 'neutral' area....

They are widening their appeal; there is clearly a limit beyond which attempting to widen it further is pointless; I've explained above why no such 'neutral' area has been identified.

Besides the usual issues regarding their flag, anthem and certain 'attitudes' of their fanbase

If you don't like their 'attitudes' (basically, that they identify with NI and support its football team), you clearly fall beyond the limit above. You aren't ever going to support NI: if you want to influence planning and development in Belfast city, move there and vote. Otherwise, you are just trolling?

Whilst the opinions of NI fans are abviously important, they are not the be all and end all

On the issue of whether Windsor should be abandoned, they are pretty much the be all and end all. It's a public facility and they are clearly identifiable as the people who use it. Any inconveneience that causes for other people is a factor, but we're not really arguing about that, are we?

Obviously building a new multi-use stadium is a separate and wider issue.

Any new stadium will be built will also be used for Rugby and other sports, as well as concerts etc.

See above. Rugby and other sports don't need a new stadium, evidence being their lack on interest in lobbying for one, development of their exisiting facilities etc.

Is Belfast really short of an outdoor concert venue? If you don't like Windsor, wouldn't Casement or Ravenhill or the Botanic Gardens do? I don't watch much stadium rock these days, but I'd have guessed that any act likely to fill a stadium would be far more likely just to play Croke (or Lansdowne when it re-opens) in Ireland.

as one of the taxpayers who will be paying for this venture, I don't really care what NI fans want, and think my opinion should carry exactly the same weight as Raymond Kennedy

Your opinion does carry that same weight as Kennedy's. You want a new stadium in Belfast? Fine, vote and lobby your councillors and MLAs for it. Prefer to leave Windsor ramshackle? Ditto.

If they want a stadium to suit themselves, they should pay for it themselves. In the meantime the IFA is only a customer with no where else to shop

Obviously they should lobby for what their customers want, including public money. I believe there will be public support for this investment, even if the choice of other developers at which to shop has been slashed by the recession. OK, it won't be 100% public support, but this is Northern Ireland after all...

Windsor simply isn't suitable, for several reasons

Interesting points about security and access. I think these are less of a problem than you suggest. Car parking does need improvement, but Windsor is within walking distance of the centre (two miles). Without being trite about the riot at the Poland game, those kicking it off would have been able to find the necessary dark alleys somewhere else if they wanted. And in crude cost terms we can't reasonably plan a football stadium in Belfast on the basis that Polish/ English/ whoever's hooligans visit once every five years. I expect your brother reassured you that most other recent internationals/ cup fianls/ big two derbies have passed off largely preacefully?

There is no shortage of alternative sites owned by Belfast City Council. 2 I would suggest are either Musgrave Park or Boucher Road playing fields. these sites have several advantages over Windsor

Why haven't these sites been discussed along with Ormeau Park/ Mays Field/ North Foreshore/ Blanchflower Park etc.? Again, genuine question.

Personally, I'd have little problem with a stadium at one end of Boucher Road rather than the other. Even if I don't share your confidence that it would solve the political issues. As for infrastructure for GAA matches- you've already got that a mile away at Casement. £27 million is a lot more than £20 million (assuming that new build costs would be similar to Swansea's).
Strictly speaking, aren't the other Boucher Road sites brownfield (ie previously used for industry/ warehousing etc.)?

One day soon the FAI and IFA should start thinking about a joint bid for the European championships. with Landsowne Rd, Croke PArk, Thomond Park, a stadium in Belfast and a new Brandywell, we would be well on the way to having the facilities

Ha ha. Dublin is already getting a UEFA cup final; the South could quite easily host the U-21 tournament (LoI grounds with a showpiece final), the U-19 in 2005 went well, hopefully Brandywell will be redeveloped. But...there's about as much chance of the senior European championships happening in Ireland as of San Marino playing in them.

Between us (post recission) we could afford to have the likes of a velodrome, another pool, a rowing lake, an athletics stadium and all sorts of facilities for watersports, boxing etc

Beautifully evocative description. But if you want 3,000,000 people to use facilities, you don't put them in Aughnacloy. Much as I love it, it's a rural village.

Anyways seems to be plenty of (letter writing) opposition to the upgrading of Windsor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...sh/8253315.stm

Surely it's opposition to the sweetheart contract between Linfield and the IFA? Which would go as part of any deal to refurb Windsor? Sounds like half-hearted whinging by Glentoran to me.

could also have lower running costs whilst integrating technologies such as renewables and low carbon design(a consideration which is going to be more pressing for everyone whether we like it or not before too long)

The refurb of Windsor would involve two entirely new stands. I don't pretend to understand the engineering, but why can't they incorporate that new technology?