Fenlon advocates All Ireland League

[osarusan]

It seems that some people accept that the EL is facing dire commercial threats but dont really want anything to change.

This is not true. We want lots of things to change, but we disagree about how to best effect this change. Some people, including myself, think that an AIL will not address any of the core problems of football in this country.

There is a simple reason why you wont get 20k people attending LoI games notwithstanding the profound cultural and social changes that have taken place, and that's becuase most of the stadia cannot physically acoomodate these numbers.

The simple reason why we don't get 20,000 at games is because not enough people are interested in domestic football. The number of occasions where fans have been turned away due to attendance having reached capacity is virtually nil. And the situation would remain the same even in an AIL in my opinion.

The fact remains that even in an AIL, most of the games will be in the same grounds against the same teams as now. The fact that most clubs are tightening their belts and some are talking about part-time football seems to indicate (to me at least) that we are not going to see any great improvement in the standard of football. So what reason is there to believe that more people will go to watch (for example) Bohs versus Derry, or Cork versus St. Pats, than currently go?

People talk about increased attendances but apart from Linfield, I don't think any of the IL teams would attract any more spectators than we currently get.

Also, increased TV money is often mentioned, but who will pay to cover the AIL? Considering RTE don't want to cover the LOI, and the BBC provides little more than minimal coverage of the IL, I'm not sure that an amalgamation of the two will suddenly have channels vying to cover it.

I'd actually like to see an AIL, but I think that without some serious measures taken to force clubs to be more sensible in their approach to spending, any AIL would have the same problems that the LOI does at the moment (can't really say I know that much about the IL).

And what is the point of disparaging and abusing so-called "bar stoolers?" If you dont want people who are not currently LoI supporters sullying the integrity of this league then stop complaining.

Agreed. I've been saying this for a long time.

[marinobohs]

They're not willing to support a league of full time teams like Bohs, Derry and Cork either.
I'm actually for an AIL, but not for the reasoning of a vain attempt to sustain ridiculous spending by clubs, and wouldn't be in favour of a small closed shop arrangement. Set minimum standards (like a licence ), and then it should be a meritocracy.

the point made was that if expensive set ups like Bohs Derry Cork cannot attract crowds then reverting to part time football (as appears likely for most/all clubs) is not going to improve the crowd situation.
Nobody is proposing an AIL to "sustain ridiculous spending by clubs" and that is a completely seperate matter to be addressed by clubs themselves.

I would agree with you around meritocracy although this would currently lead to a very narrow location base.As I said, a lot of work to be done on a League model but that should not stop us looking at it now.

Incidentally in the future I would also support a celtic League concept with teams for Ireland, Wales and Scotland (probobly outside Premier initially) competing on a SETANTA Cup type basis.

[Mr A]

Going full-time did not increase crowds, so going part-time probably won't decrease them.

[marinobohs]

Going full-time did not increase crowds, so going part-time probably won't decrease them.

Full time and part time are extremes and there may be somewhere in between. In my opinion full time football has improved the level of football in the LOI and has certainly attracted players that would not be here were it a part time game.
While it is difficult to quantify the impact of full time /part time on crowds I would find it very surprising if reverting to a fully part time League did not have a detremental effect on attendances.

[osarusan]

While it is difficult to quantify the impact of full time /part time on crowds I would find it very surprising if reverting to a fully part time League did not have a detremental effect on attendances.

Maybe true, but I would find it very surprising if the extra income derived from an AIL would allow full-time clubs to be sustainable to a level which income from LOI does not currently allow.

[marinobohs]

Maybe true, but I would find it very surprising if the extra income derived from an AIL would allow full-time clubs to be sustainable to a level which income from LOI does not currently allow.

as I mentioned previously I do not see the AIL as the solution but I would see it as a part of a strategy to improve the League structure. There is no doubt that there would be increased media interest (at least in the short term) and possible greater financial backing for an AIL. If done right it could/should increase income streams.

[gufc2000]

2. Not us anyway. That has been made clear by the discussions over the past few years. I dont expect many of you to mourn that if it happens though as I fear alot of fans would like to see us go the way of Cobh.

I woudn't. I think Monaghan are a model club for many rural teams, steady set-up, invest in infrastructure and youth, and don't spend beyond their means. They are patient, and have kept faith in Mick Cooke, when other clubs would have him long gone

[endabob1]

Not in my view BD,

The AIL is a "one shot game" where we have to get it right.

Spot on

[BohDiddley]

Still a bunch of negatives, but no positive reason has been given to support the continuation of separate leagues in preference to AIL.

[ped_ped]

I can think of only two negatives to the AIL (three if you count the cost to the individual weaker clubs).

1. Common sense (or lack thereof). This will always prevent the AIL going smoothly. The IL will want half the spaces, regardless of the fact that they're drawing on less than half the population.

2. Transport. Limerick and Galway are too far away from Linfield. This shouldn't be an issue, but our rail network is quite simply an abomination. The Dublin teams have no issue, but Linfield vs Galway will be poorly attended.

3. This is totally selfish, but it's a reason negotiations could break down. The likes of Fingal, Limerick, Monoghan. All of us feel we've a shot at promotion, but in an All Ireland League we're pushed further down the pecking order. This isn't a fair reason, but it could influence negotiations.

After this, an AIL could work wonders for the island, politically, and football-wise.

[BohDiddley]

What positive reasons have you given to support the change to an AIL? When there is potential of change to the status quo, I think the onus is on those who support the change to presuade the others why change is beneficial, rather than the other way round.

I've already given them. They're fundamental, while most of the negatives given so far are nit-picking and have nothing to do uniquely with the AIL.

If you take out the small-is-good parochial arguments, and the distractions, such as objections to franchise football, it's a no-brainer.

AIL is bigger. It's got a bigger market, bigger clubs, and a better spread around the country. A serious business organization thought it commercially viable, and they were run out of it. Where else would that happen?

[osarusan]

I've already given them. They're fundamental, while most of the negatives given so far are nit-picking and have nothing to do uniquely with the AIL.

Your first post in this thread

An all-Ireland league automatically would have a much bigger supporter base, would comprise more clubs that are viable, and would have a much improved geographical balance. (That this has to be spelt out is in itself a measure of how obtuse the debate has become.) While there might be some sectarian resistance, such a league also would benefit from much public goodwill -- something distinctly lacking in Irish football right now -- and from institutional support.

How would it make clubs more viable? A club's viability is determined by how much they spend compared to how much they bring in. Lots of clubs overspend, and that problem would still exist (and in my opinion, be exaggerated) in an AIL.

What exactly is the goodwill and institutional support an AIL would be getting?

AIL is bigger. It's got a bigger market

But the problem is not theat the market is too small. It's that nobody cares about domestic football. A bigger market doesn't solve that. From Pineapple Stu's Attendances thread - Premier Division average - 2,050. That figure multiplied by 5 games means we get just over 10,000 a week watching LOI Premier Division football. From a population of over 4 million.

bigger clubs

How does an AIL make Bohs a bigger club?

I'll ask the question again - what exactly is going to make people come to watch Bohs against Derry an an AIL match that doesn't exist in the LOI?

What TV companies are going to pay serious sums of money to cover it that are not willing to do so now?

[BohDiddley]

Your first post in this thread

How would it make clubs more viable? A club's viability is determined by how much they spend compared to how much they bring in. Lots of clubs overspend, and that problem would still exist (and in my opinion, be exaggerated) in an AIL.

They would have a bigger market to sell to. Can you please cite an example of a business sector that prefers smaller markets?

What exactly is the goodwill and institutional support an AIL would be getting?

Having football supporters come together cross-border has wider political benefits (and I don't mean from a nationalist perspective). It would be seen by official Ireland, north and south, as A Good Thing.

But the problem is not theat the market is too small. It's that nobody cares about domestic football. A bigger market doesn't solve that. From Pineapple Stu's Attendances thread - Premier Division average - 2,050. That figure multiplied by 5 games means we get just over 10,000 a week watching LOI Premier Division football. From a population of over 4 million.

Low interest is the fundamental problem: I absolutely agree. A bigger market alone won't solve it, but the bigger the potential market the greater chance of a solution being found. As I said, if you want someone to argue that the AIL is a magic wand that will cure all of Irish football's ills, you're talking to the wrong person. But it provides a better platform on which to tackle the problems.

How does an AIL make Bohs a bigger club?

It doesn't. At least not directly. AIL would make the average size of clubs bigger. I'm sorry to repeat myself, but see the answer under 'viable'.

I'll ask the question again - what exactly is going to make people come to watch Bohs against Derry an an AIL match that doesn't exist in the LOI?

Nothing about that particular fixture, but a higher profile that an AIL would enjoy has the potential to generate interest. And we would most definitely getting more to watch Bohs v Linfield than Bohs v Bray.

What TV companies are going to pay serious sums of money to cover it that are not willing to do so now?

I haven't seen that claim made. But they are more likely to pay more to cover an AIL game that has audience both sides of the border. P1, which is not a charitable organization, had a business plan that would have factored this in, although I'll grant you that that was pre-recession.

With respect, I think you are taking completely the wrong tack here. You want to know 'exactly' what benefits AIL will bring. I am saying that it will bring basic advantages of scale. How those advantages are realised as concrete gains in audience, revenue and progress in Europe very much depends on how the show is run. Most of the objections raised here are selfish ones (some of them disingenuously so) or relate to issues such as overspending that have nothing at all to do with AIL per se, are already firmly present in LoI, and which without firm regulation would feature under whatever model was adopted.
And I still haven't heard a single positive argument, comparing the two options, in favour of the status quo.

[osarusan]

I am saying that it will bring basic advantages of scale. How those advantages are realised as concrete gains in audience, revenue and progress in Europe very much depends on how the show is run. Most of the objections raised here are selfish ones (some of them disingenuously so) or relate to issues such as overspending that have nothing at all to do with AIL per se, are already firmly present in LoI, and which without firm regulation would feature under whatever model was adopted.

Fair enough. I appreciate the depth of reply.

And while I agree that a lot of the criticism aimed at AIL would be a problem within domestic football under any jurisdiction, I think a lot of the potential positive developments being associated with AIL are possible under any jurisdiction.

I can see your points, but my fear is that an AIL, if not managed properly (and prepared for properly) will be of the same standard as the LOI is now, in the same standard of stadium, watched by the same number of people, with the same levels of advertising and revenue. People will turn up for a game or two and realise it's the same cr@p they weren't interested in before. And in my opinion, the things necessary to persuade those people to come back again and again can be be provided without any AIL (apart from the term 'AIL', of course).

[sonofstan]

And I still haven't heard a single positive argument, comparing the two options, in favour of the status quo.

It's hard to argue for the status quo, either side of the border, but that's not necessarily an argument in favour of any particular option: the most one can reasonably say is that it makes the search for something better more urgent.

I'd be (very) cautiously in favour of some kind of AIL, but it would require an awful lot of planning and of the long term variety. I've no desire for franchise football, but it might be the case that we would need some system of central contracts, and really, really tight controls on spending, to the point of taking large parts of it out of the hands of clubs completely by whatever body runs the league. So, while I don't want to see a North Dublin Galaxy, i might accept Bohs effectively run by the league paying bills, wages, selling advertising and sourcing sponsorship, with the club only concerned with working out how to spend within a budget set for them.

This system should be put in place for a minimum of 5 years, with a renegotiation after that allowing some more freedom to clubs if the league as a whole is prospering.

All sorts of problems raise their heads though: we can probably get over the sectarianism hurdle most of the time, but would you seriously want to be a Rovers/ Bohs/ Cork fan in East Belfast or Coleraine in July? Perhaps for that reason, either a winter season, or a split one might be wiser.

Apart from that, if we are ever to see 5 figure crowds at football here regularly, then there needs to be major spending on grounds - only Windsor and Turner's Cross are even near what's required to even look acceptable on telly, never mind actually look after fans.

[pineapple stu]

How does an AIL make Bohs a bigger club?

With regards the "bigger clubs" argument, it should be noted that the current "big clubs" are - bar Rovers, it seems - big on the basis of utterly unsustainable spending. Shels were a big club three years ago for example, but have now found their true level (and God knows what'll happen when they leave Tolka). These clubs - the ones who happen to be killing themselves at present - are the last clubs we should be pandering to.

The "bigger market" argument is also a fallacy, as Bohs, for example, are a Phibsboro/North Dublin club - that's their market, not the 26 counties. Their market won't become bigger with an AIL.

There doesn't particularly need to be an argument in favour of the status quo; what's sufficient is that the AIL as proposed by, for example, Platinum1 would be worse than the current position, and therefore shouldn't go ahead. It would be worse because -

(a) the P1 business plan is built on sand (I don't for a second believe they had the funding to support the extra prize money they promised)
(b) if clubs try and go fully-pro on the P1 proposals, you'll very quickly end up with a repeat of the current situation, where clubs tried to go fully-pro on the AIG proposals
(c) the AIL is being proposed by people with vested interests - in other words, it's generally those who are dying through overspending trying to deflect attention from their own incompetence and looking to blame someone else
(d) the big clubs who would be looking to be in the league are only big, as noted above, by virtue of overspending; rewarding them by placing them in an AIL would be a catalyst for disaster in the very near future.

In addition, I simply don't believe arguments like increased market size or increased media interest. Until the pro side can back up these claims by more in-depth arguments than "Think about it" or "It has to", then they can't be admitted, and that's really all the pro side has. It's all the AIG side had too, and we can now see that none of the similar promises have come to fruition as a result. (There's increased TV exposure, but this could have been achieved without the AIG system)

Again, I'm in favour of an AIL, but I'd simply merge the two leagues together and not expect anything to change massively.

(And before anyone points it out, all this is dependent on the IL clubs wanting in, which for the moment, they've made clear they don't)

[punkrocket]

Not to mention the thorny issue of 3 o'clock kick offs on Saturday afternoons to be resolved.

[dcfcsteve]

The "bigger market" argument is also a fallacy, as Bohs, for example, are a Phibsboro/North Dublin club - that's their market, not the 26 counties. Their market won't become bigger with an AIL.

This doesn't reflect the reality of football in any country though Stu.

The bigger/better sides - particularly those from the largest population centres, due to the movement of people - tend to attract support from throughout their specific country, rather than just locally. This is the case not just in big footballing markets, but also in Portugal, Belgium, the Netherlands, Scandinavia etc etc etc. If an all-island league did lead to a significant increase in appeal and support for the league - and I appreciate that bit is moot - then itr would undoubtedly see an element of this 'spillover market' support happening. Linfield has support throughout Northern Ireland. Yes - it's largely a 'super prod' thing. But nonetheless - their market is clearly not just a slither of south Belfast.

There doesn't particularly need to be an argument in favour of the status quo; what's sufficient is that the AIL as proposed by, for example, Platinum1 would be worse than the current position, and therefore shouldn't go ahead. It would be worse because -

(a) the P1 business plan is built on sand (I don't for a second believe they had the funding to support the extra prize money they promised).

On what basis do you believe this ?

(b) if clubs try and go fully-pro on the P1 proposals, you'll very quickly end up with a repeat of the current situation, where clubs tried to go fully-pro on the AIG proposals

Perhaps they would. But perhaps not as well - this is moot conjecture. Perhaps they'd all work swimmingly well ? That assertion would be as relevant as your viewpoint. Unless you're suggesting that professional footbal is an inherently dangerous/broken model, then there is the possibility that it could work for some/most/all clubs. Part of the problem for clubs at the moment is that they have such limited forms of revenue that they're scrabbling for money and making a hash of things. Would they do the same in a bigger league ? Perhaps ? But professional football manages to work in a lot of other contries without the chaos we have perennially in Ireland, so perhaps it wouldn't happen. It would also be possible that a bigger more attractive league would attract a broader and more capable range of club administrators who wouldn't be the eejits like Coughlan that we're currently stuck with by default. What competent business person or administrator would want to waste their time on either of the two leagues on this island currently ? Perhaps the two things are inter-linked.

(c) the AIL is being proposed by people with vested interests - in other words, it's generally those who are dying through overspending trying to deflect attention from their own incompetence and looking to blame someone else

I'd agree it's being proposed by those with a vested interest - of course it is. Just like it tends to be opposed by those with a vested interest. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. But I'd disagree with your notion that those in favour of it take that stance purely so they can create a bogeyman for their ills. That's just getting into the realms of conspiracy theories. I would assert their in favour of it because they believe it is best for their club and the league. Since when did anyone in Irish football need a bogeyman to blame for their own incompetence ?? We've had incompetence here for decades (like sex, every generation of LOI fans seem to think theirs is the first to discover/suffer league incompetence), yet there's never been a need for soemthing to blame.

(d) the big clubs who would be looking to be in the league are only big, as noted above, by virtue of overspending; rewarding them by placing them in an AIL would be a catalyst for disaster in the very near future.

Just to be clear then. The only difference between Monaghan United - a club in the league less than 25yrs from a town with a population of about 20,000 - and Bohemians - a club in senior football for over a hundred years and from an area with a population of anywhere form 100,000 upwards - the only reason why one of those clubs is bigger than the other is spending ?!? So if Monaghan went on a big spending spree, they'd be bigger than Cork, Derry, Bohs, Rovers etc etc ?? We both know that that's just nonesense. History and support base determine how big a club is - not a flash in the pan spending spree. Hence why Drogheda have instantly gone back to being a mid-tier club after their brief spending spree has stopped. They haven't become a big club - they just won a bit more silverware than they otherwise would have, and picked-up a small number of new fans.

In addition, I simply don't believe arguments like increased market size or increased media interest. Until the pro side can back up these claims by more in-depth arguments than "Think about it" or "It has to", then they can't be admitted, and that's really all the pro side has. It's all the AIG side had too, and we can now see that none of the similar promises have come to fruition as a result. (There's increased TV exposure, but this could have been achieved without the AIG system)

Firstly - you're arguing against common sense. If your attitude had been adopted, the whole EU would never have gotten off the ground : 'Don't just rationalise with me the benefits of a Common Market. Prove it to me or I'm out'. Hell - humanity would never have left Africa : "I know you've got all these fancy reasons for why there's probably better land and bigger animals on the other side of that big hill, but if you can't PROVE it to me then I'm just going to stay put in this here desert".

Secondly - how can you prove the future ? All you can do is to make rational judgements based on experience etc to extrapolate what could happen. Yet when such judgements are made they're not good enough - you want crystal ball gazing.

The AIL is by no means all about Platinum One - I believe in the broad concept of an AIL, and have no attachment to their specific plans. But you have to admit that one of the biggest sporting events in Ireland this year will have been Real Madrid playing Rovers in Tallaght, and getting people to pay E60 for the pleasure. A year ago if you'd told people in a pub that thew full Real Madrid team would play Shamrock Rovers and Ronaldo would be making his debut, you'd have been laughed off (and not because of the Ronaldo bit). Yet people still look down their noses at Platinum as fantasists who can't be taken seriously.

Again, I'm in favour of an AIL, but I'd simply merge the two leagues together and not expect anything to change massively.

And that's exactly what would happen - nothing really would change.

An AIL would offer an opportunity to 'relaunch' domestic football in Ireland - to create a bit of noise and interest and buzz around it to open the eyes of some new people to our product. I'm confident that, if done properly by people who know how to market sport (i.e. not the IFA and FAI) then it would attract some new fans initially. I have no idea how many or for how long, but I have seen numerous examples of where hype and interest, if delivered by people who know how to do it, leads directly to increased interest in sport. But you'd prefer to say 'bah humbug' and have two combined leagues with nothign else really changing. In which case we'd get the problems of an all-island league without the benefits

[BohDiddley]

Your arguments around big clubs (I think bigger is a more useful adjective) v small clubs are specious. Put simply, Bohs are bigger than UCD, and not by dint of overspending in recent years.

I simply don't believe arguments like increased market size or increased media interest. Until the pro side can back up these claims by more in-depth arguments than "Think about it" or "It has to", then they can't be admitted, and that's really all the pro side has.

We're into parallel versions of reality here, it seems. In one reality, two small markets merged makes a bigger market. In yours, you believe that doesn't happen, or you seem to want to cling to some sort of small-is-good dogma.

Again, I'm in favour of an AIL, but I'd simply merge the two leagues together and not expect anything to change massively.

A step-change in the size of the league certainly would help, but I agree that it would have to be planned carefully, avoiding expectations of automatic gains. I'm not arguing for a particular model. What I am saying is that Fenlon is right: that AIL has an unstoppable logic.

(And before anyone points it out, all this is dependent on the IL clubs wanting in, which for the moment, they've made clear they don't)

True. (But some might when they get fed up with a two-team league.)

[pineapple stu]

We're into parallel versions of reality here, it seems. In one reality, two small markets merged makes a bigger market. In yours, you believe that doesn't happen, or you seem to want to cling to some sort of small-is-good dogma.

I've told you why the "bigger market" argument doesn't hold. Bohs' market is Phibsboro/North Dublin, which won't get bigger in an AIL. But way to ignore whatever parts of my post suit you.