Fenlon advocates All Ireland League

**pineapple stu** · 01/09/2009, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by BohDiddley

Its relevance is roughly equivalent to your reference to Derry AGMs, which was sort of the point.

I was making a point with my comparison, pointing out the ways and means (and results) of Walter-Mitty-esque dreamers with no solid plans, likening it to the attitude of a few on this thread and wondering when people will learn to think things through properly and not shout down those who disagree. You've no point to make at all.

**endabob1** · 01/09/2009, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by redobit

Heard a very good comment on the AIL by a N.I. league fan. Basically he said:

'At the moment my furthest away game is a short distance. Why would we want an AIL that would mean I'd have to travel to somewhere like Limerick, to see my team play in the second tier of a league that would have a worse standard of football that we have now.'

I think beneath a top level it should still be regionalised to reduce costs and to retain the autonomy for the FAI & IFA over development of the "grass roots"

In answer to the original questions;

1. would it really improve attendances?
Yes for 2 reasons
A) Novelty value and Proper marketing (Said with my optomistic hat on)
B) Clubs with bigger Support, as mentioned elsewhere the visit of Linfield to Tallagh would generate more interest than the visit of Bray (as an example)

The real question is "would it improve attendances enough"and sadly I think the answer to that is a resounding No.

2. What teams would be involved?
Well it depends on the size of the league but assuming a 10/12 team top Division, you're probably going to have something very similar to the Platinum One proposals,
2/3 Belfast/NI
1 Derry
1 Galway
1 Limerick
1 Cork
3/4 Dublin
possibly 1 other if it's a 12 teamer.

No names mentioned but from a population/catchment standpoint that would be the most likely split imo.

Of course that's all to assume that if an all-Ireland league did happen it would involve the current clubs, you might get some mad MLS style benefactor coming in and franchising al the teams, he might have trouble picking a name for Cork though, they must have run out of names by now

**BohDiddley** · 01/09/2009, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I was making a point with my comparison, pointing out the ways and means (and results) of Walter-Mitty-esque dreamers with no solid plans, likening it to the attitude of a few on this thread and wondering when people will learn to think things through properly and not shout down those who disagree. You've no point to make at all.

OK. You don't want to tell me what your AGMs are like. I can understand that. I'm sorry for asking.

But can you please make a rational argument, rather than simply attacking those who support a proposal which you clearly don't like?
So far, it seems to me, the objections are...

My team will not be in the top division
My team will be in a second tier where the standard of football is not as good as the first tier
I will have to travel further to away games (which seems a good argument for a Dublin-only league)
An AIL will not be a panacea.

All of those, bar the last, are sectional considerations and are irrelevant except insofar as smaller clubs will vote against an AIL.
The last is a false argument. No one is claiming AIL as a panacea. I certainly do not consider it a silver bullet. But it is a platform that would better facilitate solutions that would go beyond the initial hoopla.
Now, can someone make a positive statement as to why, given a choice, Irish football should opt to organize on a smaller scale than is possible?

**White Horse** · 01/09/2009, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by endabob1

2. What teams would be involved?
Well it depends on the size of the league but assuming a 10/12 team top Division, you're probably going to have something very similar to the Platinum One proposals,
2/3 Belfast/NI
1 Derry
1 Galway
1 Limerick
1 Cork
3/4 Dublin
possibly 1 other if it's a 12 teamer.

No names mentioned but from a population/catchment standpoint that would be the most likely split imo.

Limerick and Galway are red herrings in my opinion. The may be large urban areas but they are not football towns.

In addition, they are too difficult to get to from anywhere but Dublin. They will attract poor away support by NI teams.

An all-Ireland league will need to attract good away support. There are just not enough home supporters to ensure good gates. Fans need to travel to make up the numbers.

**Mr A** · 01/09/2009, 11:25 AM

Balls to franchise football.

Also- If the 'big' clubs are looking to improve things they should start by looking a lot closer to home.

**endabob1** · 01/09/2009, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by White Horse

Limerick and Galway are red herrings in my opinion. The may be large urban areas but they are not football towns.

In addition, they are too difficult to get to from anywhere but Dublin. They will attract poor away support by NI teams.

An all-Ireland league will need to attract good away support. There are just not enough home supporters to ensure good gates. Fans need to travel to make up the numbers.

I agree to a certain degree about Limerick, traditionally a Rugby Town & Galway, traditionally a lazy student & hippy town (joke) but I think they would be included for the simple reason that the populations are there.
However I also think if an AIL was to get off the ground and work it needs to expand its supporter base beyond current levels. Sligo & Athlone are what I would descirbe as traditional football towns but because of their size there is always a cap on how much support they will get, regardless of the rights or wrongs, when this is being looked at with a cold business heart, Athlone will not be included.

The transport issue could just as easily be applied to Cork & for that matter getting to Derry from Dublin/Munster is not much fun.

**pineapple stu** · 01/09/2009, 11:36 AM

Have you seen what's happened to Galway since last they were considered indispensible to the Premier due to ther large catchment area?

What do you think would happen differently under your idea?

Do you not think it's a teensy bit silly to be proposing something which failed just three years ago?

**marinobohs** · 01/09/2009, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

.

I probably shouldn't be, but I'm amazed that people can still think the AIL is a panacea for the league, or state that "The Platinum One approach was one of the better ones I've seen". I think the inability to learn or to think ideas through rationally shown here is a microcosm of the league in general.

Nobody is suggesting that an AIL is the "panacea for the League". there is very major problems in the current set up and these must be addressed - Bohs Derry Dundalk Cork - all this season. it would appear that full time football is not viable within the current structure, If full time football is to be maintained (as many pundits believe is best option) then the League structure must change.
People will never go to support a League of part time UCD type clubs, unfortunate but reality.
There remains a lot of work to do around any AIL proposal but rejecting the idea out of hand is narrowminded and does nothing for Irish football (North or South)

**endabob1** · 01/09/2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Have you seen what's happened to Galway since last they were considered indispensible to the Premier due to ther large catchment area?

What do you think would happen differently under your idea?

Do you not think it's a teensy bit silly to be proposing something which failed just three years ago?

Where have I propsed anything?

I have said I don't think an AIL would get sufficient support
I have said if someone is trying it (like Platinum One) they will look at it from a business perspective and not take into account tradition etc.. it will be about business and business only.

To quote Jim Diamond "I should have known better"

**White Horse** · 01/09/2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by endabob1

I agree to a certain degree about Limerick, traditionally a Rugby Town & Galway, traditionally a lazy student & hippy town (joke) but I think they would be included for the simple reason that the populations are there.
However I also think if an AIL was to get off the ground and work it needs to expand its supporter base beyond current levels. Sligo & Athlone are what I would descirbe as traditional football towns but because of their size there is always a cap on how much support they will get, regardless of the rights or wrongs, when this is being looked at with a cold business heart, Athlone will not be included.

The transport issue could just as easily be applied to Cork & for that matter getting to Derry from Dublin/Munster is not much fun.

Its all about numbers, the average home gate would need to be over 2,000 to support a decent standard of football. Cork and Derry may be difficult to get to but they can largely achieve this with just home support.

What do Galway get? 1000? And Limerick? 500 or so.

That is why I think these clubs are red herrings.

**pineapple stu** · 01/09/2009, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by endabob1

Where have I propsed anything?

You're right; I mistook the Platinum One proposals you listed as your own. Apologies.

Originally Posted by marinobohs

it would appear that full time football is not viable within the current structure, If full time football is to be maintained (as many pundits believe is best option) then the League structure must change.

This is what I mean by "panacea for the league"; it's probably not the most water-tight of phrases.

There's nothing to suggest yet another change will suddenly bring about a viable full-time league. The Setanta Cup, in fact, argues strongly that it won't. There's also nothing to suggest that we must have full-time football. A part-time league will continue to exist. We mightn't get the results in Europe we've had the last few years, but at least clubs will stop going bankrupt every couple of months. I'm curious why people can't be happy with this, and build from there, rather than trying desperately to maintain the status quo.

There remains a lot of work to do around any AIL proposal but rejecting the idea out of hand is narrowminded and does nothing for Irish football (North or South)

If that was aimed at me, I've said before and I'll say again now that I'm in favour of an AIL (although mainly for political reasons). I don't see it changing much in the league, and I dislike the notion that we "must change" because the present is bad.

**endabob1** · 01/09/2009, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You're right; I mistook the Platinum One proposals you listed as your own. Apologies.

No worries

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

If that was aimed at me, I've said before and I'll say again now that I'm in favour of an AIL (although mainly for political reasons). I don't see it changing much in the league, and I dislike the notion that we "must change" because the present is bad.

I agree & I too am broadly in favour of an AIL as I do think it could potentially be a viable proposition which would mean better players staying at home & a strong domestic league will benefit the national team(s) in the long run.
But putting 2 badly run, badly supported leages together will change f--k all, if it's going to be it has to be done right and it needs a hell of a lot of work on both sides of the border plus a massive investment to get it off the ground. I don't see either of these 2 hurdles being addressed & for these reasons I would rather it wasn't done until the support is there from both associations, UEFA & whatever sponsors/financial supporters come on board.

**Macy** · 01/09/2009, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by marinobohs

People will never go to support a League of part time UCD type clubs, unfortunate but reality.

They're not willing to support a league of full time teams like Bohs, Derry and Cork either.

As a general btw, why is there the constant focus on a 10-12 team league? As part of an AIL, with the opportunity of (at least) two feeder leagues, there's no need to narrow down the number of teams to such an extent. It's narrow minded to be against an AIL, yet all we get are regurgitation of the failed P1 proposal...

I'm actually for an AIL, but not for the reasoning of a vain attempt to sustain ridiculous spending by clubs, and wouldn't be in favour of a small closed shop arrangement. Set minimum standards (like a licence

), and then it should be a meritocracy.

**pineapple stu** · 01/09/2009, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by endabob1

if it's going to be it has to be done right and it needs a hell of a lot of work on both sides of the border plus a massive investment to get it off the ground.

I'd rather we focussed on doing the hell of a lot of work first, which can be done separately, getting a league of properly-run clubs, and only then looking at an AIL.

**BohDiddley** · 01/09/2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'd rather we focussed on doing the hell of a lot of work first, which can be done separately, getting a league of properly-run clubs, and only then looking at an AIL.

Wouldn't it be better to do the same work in a bigger context?

**pineapple stu** · 01/09/2009, 12:13 PM

Not if the "bigger context" detracts from doing the work.

If you have a position where clubs feel they need to improve to make an invitational AIL, then clubs are going to put financial prudence to one side, and you'll end up with an AIL having the exact same problems as now.

There's nothing to stop both leagues getting their houses in order, and only then looking at if they want to merge.

**MariborKev** · 01/09/2009, 12:14 PM

Not in my view BD,

The AIL is a "one shot game" where we have to get it right.

**BohDiddley** · 01/09/2009, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by MariborKev

Not in my view BD,

The AIL is a "one shot game" where we have to get it right.

So are you saying that you are for it in principle, but the timing isn't right?

**peadar1987** · 01/09/2009, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Have you seen what's happened to Galway since last they were considered indispensible to the Premier due to ther large catchment area?

What do you think would happen differently under your idea?

Do you not think it's a teensy bit silly to be proposing something which failed just three years ago?

I worked in Galway for 2 weeks earlier this year as a watersports instructor. I probably worked with 40-50 kids over that period of time, and only one of the ones I talked to actually knew where Terryland was and who played there. On all of my wanderings through the city, I never once saw any sort of promotion for a Galway game. I think the low attendances could be due to more than an apathy of the population towards football.

As for an all-Ireland league, I'm neither particularly for or against it. I think it's more important for both leagues to sort out their own houses than it is to merge them.