The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

[dcfcsteve]

No, but the IFA can.

Indeed they can. And they could remove yours too. And any other club regiesterd with them. Isn't life fascinating.

[Nedser]

Because I haven't seen an agreement that states
1) Derry City would share Celtic's cost
2) what Celtics obligations were in respect of the squad they brought over.

This might be veering slightly off-topic, but TBH I'm not sure what the topic is anymore, so anyway. I don't know whether there was a written agreement between DCFC and Cliftonville, but WRT to the 2nd question, it's very hard to believe that Celtic would have given any guarantee about what squad they would bring. It was an international weekend, which means Celtic could not have guaranteed the availability of any player who might have got an international call up (which is most of their squad).

[dcfcsteve]

i did. interesting reading, but not sure just how relevant it is to derry city's position.
one difference i will mention is that all of those teams you mention (afaik) were all playing in another jurisdiction prior to uefa's foundation or else had no national league or fa of their own.
afaik many of those welsh teams were (not forgetting the fact wales didn't actually have a national league until the 90s, post-"derry city to loi" and at a time when uefa were starting to crack down on teams in other jurisdictions), as were the liechtenstein teams (plus no affiliated fa until the 90s), as were berwick rangers, as were gretna.

but that is not the case with derry city. they had a national league and are not a pre-uefa legacy quirk.

and this is a forum to discuss happenings, possibilities and opinions. people have every right to go on about it if they want. it's not anyone else's fault YOU don't want to hear about it tbh.

Lamb - the pre-UEFA legacy bit is irrelavent.

No - the important thing all these rather common 'exceptions' have in common is that they currently benefit from an exception to the rule. Regardless of why that exception originally arose, or the fact that for many of them the original driver behind their exception status is no longer valid.

And football being footbal - nay, life being life - once a club has the benefit of such an exception, no-one takes it off them. Note the FAW getting their ass kicked in the High Court when they tried to force the Welsh exile clubs playing in England back into the new Welsh league.

By your arguement - for example, once a new league existed in Wales, the special circumstances that enabled them to play in the English structure (lack of a proper Welsh alternative) were no longer valid, so the FAW was corrrect in trying to force them back. Only, the law didn't see it that way.

Likewise for DCFC. The original driver of our exception - the fact that the IFA/IL were unreasnable in theoir desire to not see us back in their set-up - is gone now. As shown by the trembling knee rubbing from every IL fan on here at the prospect of having us back in your league. Yet just like the Welsh exiles, the fact the original driver behind out exceptiion is gone means not a jot. As once an exception exists in football, it doesn't get taken away. Otherwise, the 4 UK nations would have lost their individual seats on the FIFA governing committee years ago - as that is football's less defensible and most unjust 'exception'.

So you see - it is all deeply releavnt to Derry City. And all that aside - if you can't see the relevance of the fact that European law has actively supported the rights of football teams from one jurisdiuction to play in another (even in the face of virulent opposition to it from their home FA) then you're beyond debating with.

Now please - enough of the covetous stalking.

[cheifo]

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

Lets put the tired Irish League debate aside for a bit. The above are far more interesting questions.

[corkharps]

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

Those this mean that the Derry city playing in the first Div next season have never beaten Harps?

[-lamb-]

Lamb - the pre-UEFA legacy bit is irrelavent.

No - the important thing all these rather common 'exceptions' have in common is that they currently benefit from an exception to the rule. Regardless of why that exception originally arose, or the fact that for many of them the original driver behind their exception status is no longer valid.

And football being footbal - nay, life being life - once a club has the benefit of such an exception, no-one takes it off them. Note the FAW getting their ass kicked in the High Court when they tried to force the Welsh exile clubs playing in England back into the new Welsh league.

By your arguement - for example, once a new league existed in Wales, the special circumstances that enabled them to play in the English structure (lack of a proper Welsh alternative) were no longer valid, so the FAW was corrrect in trying to force them back. Only, the law didn't see it that way.

Likewise for DCFC. The original driver of our exception - the fact that the IFA/IL were unreasnable in theoir desire to not see us back in their set-up - is gone now. As shown by the trembling knee rubbing from every IL fan on here at the prospect of having us back in your league. Yet just like the Welsh exiles, the fact the original driver behind out exceptiion is gone means not a jot. As once an exception exists in football, it doesn't get taken away. Otherwise, the 4 UK nations would have lost their individual seats on the FIFA governing committee years ago - as that is football's less defensible and most unjust 'exception'.

So you see - it is all deeply releavnt to Derry City. And all that aside - if you can't see the relevance of the fact that European law has actively supported the rights of football teams from one jurisdiuction to play in another (even in the face of virulent opposition to it from their home FA) then you're beyond debating with.

Now please - enough of the covetous stalking.

all well and good.................but ONLY if your understanding of the similarities is actually the basis for any legal judgement. if not then your argument isn't as clearcut as you make it out and the differences between your club's and these other clubs' cases could have brought a different outcome.
is it just your opinion that situations that were pre-uefa or lack of domestic leagues made no difference, or do you know for fact that it made no difference?
is there any club that fitted neither of those scenarios that has won a case? i'm not saying i know for sure if it makes a difference, but i'm asking you if you know for sure that it doesn't?

[Schumi]

Those this mean that the Derry city playing in the first Div next season have never beaten Harps?

For a month or two anyway.

[Scrufil]

Ah isn't the FAI a grand organisation altogether. Lie, cheat, spit, curse and fart on all the clubs around you if you are Derry City and what reward do you get? A little bit of a dressing down and a virtually free pass into the first division. Yet if you abide by the rules and run up some debt then feck off, wither and die if you are Kildare County.

[dcfcsteve]

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

It's a non-question in fairness Harps1954.

Don't forget that our club arose from the ashes after a 13yr absence and joined an entirely separate league in a different footballing and political jurisdiction, yet that didn't affect any of our history, honours etc. So in your scenario, a quick change in legal trading terms would have no affect.

Claims on silverware in footbnall, only ever seem to be an issue when they're contested e.g. MK Dons asd AFC Wimbledon. And even in that case the Franchise agreed to relinquish all claims on Wimbledon's history and honours.

Sorry to disappoint. But at least you'll have the opportunity to try to undo oiut 98% undefeated record against Harps next season....

[VinnyDCFC]

The last few pages of this thread have been crazy reading to say the least

DCFC were forced to leave the IL in the 70's and over thirty years later it would appear that there are some on here that are suggesting that we are forced back into the IL again

[culloty82]

Don't know how the actual process for re-admitting Derry works, but the fairest solution would be to ask both them and all A Championship teams to apply. Derry would win a unanimous vote on merit, and everything would be fair and above board.

[Mr A]

Sorry to disappoint. But at least you'll have the opportunity to try to undo oiut 98% undefeated record against Harps next season....

And we'll hold on to our 100% 'Never kicked out of the league for massive, systematic cheating' record.

[Dodge]

Ah isn't the FAI a grand organisation altogether. Lie, cheat, spit, curse and fart on all the clubs around you if you are Derry City and what reward do you get? A little bit of a dressing down and a virtually free pass into the first division. Yet if you abide by the rules and run up some debt then feck off, wither and die if you are Kildare County.

That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

I've always called on the FAi to be as hard as possibe with obvious cheating. Instant relegatin is fair enough for most "crimes" committed by our clubs, including Derry in this case. Kicking them out of the league serves no purpose whatsoever.

If they get their license, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the first division.

[A N Mouse]

Ah isn't the FAI a grand organisation altogether. Lie, cheat, spit, curse and fart on all the clubs around you if you are Derry City and what reward do you get? A little bit of a dressing down and a virtually free pass into the first division. Yet if you abide by the rules and run up some debt then feck off, wither and die if you are Kildare County.

You think the FAI are bad?

Whatever you think of John Delaney, he has probably done more, personally, for the club than the IL/IFA have in the forty odd years since the first time they wouldn't let us play in the Brandywell, against Anderlecht.

They weren't overly worried about there being no senior football in Northern Ireland's second city. Coleraine are tolerated, because they're part of the furniture, while the 'big teams' would rather the likes of Dungannon, Limavady and Institute played somewhere else (too far to travel don't you know). And of course they let Omagh Town feck off wither and die.

[paudie]

That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

I've always called on the FAi to be as hard as possibe with obvious cheating. Instant relegatin is fair enough for most "crimes" committed by our clubs, including Derry in this case. Kicking them out of the league serves no purpose whatsoever.

If they get their license, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the first division.

Agree completely. It goes without saying that Derry City have been a tremendous asset to the LOI. They have been punished for rule breaking and restarting in the 1st division is appropriate.

[Krstic]

Those this mean that the Derry city playing in the first Div next season have never beaten Harps?

No and what makes matters even more unfair, any points deduction we get will be off set by the usual 9 points we take from Harps

[Mr A]

Surely this means that DCFC are out of the Setanta cup or will that be fudged as well I wonder..

[Kildareman]

That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

Dodge you surprise me. Or do you have a source for this statement?

I have read, I think it was on the official forum, that the problems of Kildare were brought to the FAI. AFAIK we had a meeting with the FAI informing them of the serious financial state the club was in.
But we were told the FAI couldnt help us so the club was left with no choice but to fold.

From what I remember this was taken from a local radio interview given by manager Joey Somerville.

Looking at the events in Derry we were definitely not treated in any way similar but merely pushed aside.

Wet fish in face...

[Kildareman]

Its not the action towards the top "glamour" clubs but the obvious inaction towards the smaller clubs that p***es me off.

[Mr_Parker]

This might be veering slightly off-topic, but TBH I'm not sure what the topic is anymore, so anyway. I don't know whether there was a written agreement between DCFC and Cliftonville, but WRT to the 2nd question, it's very hard to believe that Celtic would have given any guarantee about what squad they would bring. It was an international weekend, which means Celtic could not have guaranteed the availability of any player who might have got an international call up (which is most of their squad).

22 Celtic players were on international duty that weekend. Add to that the known injuries at the time and any notion that this was the reason that Derry called off the game because of the squad is rubbish. The game was called off because Derry didn't get of their arse and market the game. At the time it was cancelled, less than 48 hours beforehand, they had only sold circa 200 tickets. Derry knew exactly what calliber of player to expect on an International weekend when they agreed to play them on that date.