The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

[Mr_Parker]

However, the 3 IL clubs being creditors is a very good reason to object (I'm assuming C'Ville have a legal agreement that we would pay a portion of Celtics cost, otherwise its two IL creditors).

Why do you bring an element of doubt into that debt being owed?

[-lamb-]

Derry fans have given reasons why they don't agree with the law

not very convincing ones that i can see.

[Krstic]

I notice quite a few posters mention that Derry City have gone bankrupt 3 times.
I'm not saying this isn't true but I was under the impression that the last time we avoided this fate with the Celtic/Manu/Barca/Real Madrid friendlies.

???

[OneRedArmy]

not very convincing ones that i can see.

It worked before!

[OneRedArmy]

Why do you bring an element of doubt into that debt being owed?

Because I haven't seen an agreement that states
1) Derry City would share Celtic's cost
2) what Celtics obligations were in respect of the squad they brought over.

Obviously I can't believe a thing that our former board said, so can you confirm that we are liable based on a written contract or was it a gentlemans agreement between Derry and Cliftonville?

[-lamb-]

It worked before!

you had a better reason before

[cheifo]

I want Derry City in the League and am glad something will be sorted.

However if they go into the first Division this Season Debt free and with the advantage of larger budget than other teams (who are paying their creditors) it would be beyond ridiculous( even for our League).

[EalingGreen]

Back in the real world, it is clear, as stated above, that the biggest issue is the IL creditors.

No, the pressing issue is that of creditors. But assuming they are satisfied, it does not mean DCFC may thereafter ignore the other issues (or at least those which are inconvenient to them)

Whilst the IFA probably has good right to object on other grounds, politically, there is no reason to.

Assuming that by "political" you mean the politics of football, are you saying that the IFA should have no right to look after its own interests in such matters? Preposterous, if not arrogant!

The IL has been happy with Derry not being members and the FAI has been happy to have them.

Why do you assume that the members of the IL have only one opinion on this subject? At the time DCFC withdrew, there was clearly an almost even split on what approach to take.
In his history of the Irish League, Malcolm Brodie describes the process of their entry to the LOI as follows:
"Then Finn Harps' chairman Fran Fields, now FAI President, began the quest to get Derry admitted to the League of Ireland. After initial hesitation the Southern clubs gradually came to favour the idea, and with the help of some Northern teams' representatives the technical difficulties with UEFA and FIFA were overcome"
Note from my emphasis that opinions were at times divided on both sides of the border; moreover, subsequent events are bound to have altered opinions futher.

Therefore, realisitically, unless there is a reason for someone to rely on the law to object, then there is no reason to open what would be a huge political can of worms.

So what you are saying is that the IFA and FAI should both turn a blind eye to the regulatory, even legal, status of the successor to DCFC?
Isn't it that blithe willingness to play "ducks and drakes" with the Rulebook, or ignore inconvenient realities, which has plunged DCFC into crisis after crisis pretty much throughout its existence, including three times during its LOI years alone?
Or is it a case of "Hey, we're Derry, we're different, the normal Rules don't apply to us"?

However, the 3 IL clubs being creditors is a very good reason to object (I'm assuming C'Ville have a legal agreement that we would pay a portion of Celtics cost, otherwise its two IL creditors). Some way has to be found to make good this debt, otherwise the IFA is almost duty bound to object to NewCo joining the FAI, on behalf of its out of pocket members.

So you need only make good your obligations to those entities which may have the power to prevent you going merrily along your preferred path?
I guess it must be "To Hell" with any other small creditor who isn't in a position to object...

Solve that, and the other problems solve themselves IMO.

I'm glad you added the "IMO".

Not that that will stop Ealing Green constructing and destructing numerous arguments to the contrary. All on his own.

Even if I were the only poster on this Board who is interested in this aspect of the topic (and I'm not, btw), who or what gave you the right to determine what aspects of DCFC's situation may or may not be discussed in foot.ie?

The topic of debate is a prospective football club which will be based in NI, playing its home games in NI and which it seems likely will have to be a member of the IFA in NI.
Meanwhile, it hopes to play its League football in another jurisdiction, which situation is ordinarily not allowed, so that it seems it should be obliged to receive at least an acknowledgement by UEFA/the IFA that it may do so in succession to the former DCFC, if not a brand new authorisation all of its own.

So while all that may be inconvenient for you, even tiresomely so, it is still entirely relevant to the debate, therefore I will continue to debate it, as I see fit.

Moreover, I shall try to continue in the temperate and civil manner normally demanded on this forum, despite the snide and personal remarks pointed in my direction by you and certain others.

[SwanVsDalton]

Agree with ORA - without making effort to pay creditors, the IFA could potentially make things extremely difficult for both the club and FAI. All the other issues are irrelevant, since IFA have very little to gain from forcing Derry's hand if they're unwilling to rejoin (almost certainly true).

But they do have a responsibility to their clubs which could see things get more difficult.

Also those suggesting Derry could just rejoin the IL are making it sound akin to changing a lightbulb. Just because circumstances are different, are the LAW SEZ OR ELSE, doesn't make it desirable. If the IFA were to force that issue it would cause a ruckus which would make the last week seem serene.

[EalingGreen]

Agree with ORA - without making effort to pay creditors, the IFA could potentially make things extremely difficult for both the club and FAI. All the other issues are irrelevant, since IFA have very little to gain from forcing Derry's hand if they're unwilling to rejoin (almost certainly true).

But they do have a responsibility to their clubs which could see things get more difficult.

Speaking personally, I would not suggest that the IFA force DCFC to rejoin the IL "or else", at least without good reason.
But neither do I accept that they should just ignore what is going on at one of their (former?) Member clubs, either.
Outstanding debts are obviously one legitimate area of concern, but there may be others, even down to seemingly petty matters such as eg whether the new club actually joins the IFA and pays its subscription etc.
Otherwise, what would happen if, say, an accident occurred at a Derry City home game, leading to a breech of UEFA Rules, or even a Court case?
National Associations have a responsibility for games staged within their jurisdiction and even if they devolve that responsibility to another Association, the means and extent by which they do so ought to be clearly defined.

Also those suggesting Derry could just rejoin the IL are making it sound akin to changing a lightbulb. Just because circumstances are different, are the LAW SEZ OR ELSE, doesn't make it desirable. If the IFA were to force that issue it would cause a ruckus which would make the last week seem serene.

Are you suggesting that a Member of one Association switching to play in another's jurisdiction is like buying a new light bulb?

What you forget is that these are not the IFA's own wee requirements which they dreamed up one day as a means of sticking it into Derry City.

Rather, these requirements stem from UEFA/FIFA, who have very good reason for adopting and enforcing them.

Now I accept that if it were tested in this case, the new Derry City may simply be 'waved through on the nod'. However, that presumption is not a valid reason for ignoring any such requirements willy-nilly (imo).

[EalingGreen]

I want Derry City in the League and am glad something will be sorted.

However if they go into the first Division this Season Debt free and with the advantage of larger budget than other teams (who are paying their creditors) it would be beyond ridiculous( even for our League).

Assuming that the old (Wellvan) DCFC is no more, then their debts will go with them.

Or at least any new club cannot be held liable for them. Therefore, should that new club be allowed entry into the LOI 1st Division, then it must surely have to be on a debt-free basis.

You know, formerly I was admiring, even envious, of what the LOI was achieving in recent years (at least by comparison with the poor old IL).

But the more I think about it, the less impressed I am by what has been going on with the LOI and the more appreciative I am of the IL.

It's just a shame (imo) that DCFC fans clearly don't feel the same.

[harps1954]

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

[A N Mouse]

Assuming that the old (Wellvan) DCFC is no more, then their debts will go with them.

Or at least any new club cannot be held liable for them. Therefore, should that new club be allowed entry into the LOI 1st Division, then it must surely have to be on a debt-free basis.

You know, formerly I was admiring, even envious, of what the LOI was achieving in recent years (at least by comparison with the poor old IL).

But the more I think about it, the less impressed I am by what has been going on with the LOI and the more appreciative I am of the IL.

It's just a shame (imo) that DCFC fans clearly don't feel the same.

Have you not got bigger things to worry about?

Like what what day of the week to play your big christmas fixture next year?

[shep]

Is it just me or is anyone else a bit freaked out by the OBSESSION that the IL clubs about Derry...like get over it,they want to stay in LOI and to my knowledge nobody wants them to leave...so get over it!!!

[OneRedArmy]

It's just a shame (imo) that DCFC fans clearly don't feel the same.

In fairness, flag burning, nasty atmosphere and getting the windows of fans buses put in don't tend to engender a feeling of belonging.

Personally, I'm just about done with the whole Setanta thing as the novelty has worn off after the first few seasons and we're left with meat and potatoes Northern Ireland bitterness and the usual divisions (on both sides).

It is what it is. In fairness, you can't understand what we feel as you haven't gone through 25 years of supporting a team in the LoI.

We want to stay there, and we'll do everything in our power to stay there. Feel free to speculate, cajole and construct strawmen about our return, but its clear that the will of our fans is to keep the status quo and will be directed towards achieving that.

[SwanVsDalton]

Are you suggesting that a Member of one Association switching to play in another's jurisdiction is like buying a new light bulb?

No. That's what you and some others sound like. Remember Derry went without senior football for 13 years, and, as you well know, there's a certain amount of understandable resentment about it. The decision to join the LOI was hardly taken flippantly. Likewise any decision to go back won't like be flicking a switch.

What you forget is that these are not the IFA's own wee requirements which they dreamed up one day as a means of sticking it into Derry City.

Rather, these requirements stem from UEFA/FIFA, who have very good reason for adopting and enforcing them.

Now I accept that if it were tested in this case, the new Derry City may simply be 'waved through on the nod'. However, that presumption is not a valid reason for ignoring any such requirements willy-nilly (imo).

I'm not suggesting any ignoring of requirements. The IFA could make life quite difficult in this scenario, and I believe they will if certain assurances are not made in relation to money owed to IL clubs. Obviously Derry must still gain approval from the IFA (although my understanding is this will be made easier if we hold on to our name).

Realistically, however, the IFA arn't going to prevent Derry from rejoining the LOI just because the law says they can. UEFA's position on Derry is clear, as is the FAI's and, most importantly, the Derry fans. Forcing the issue in such a blunt fashion would be naive and, more likely, become a political nightmare. Who wants that?

The precedent's been set and until Derry fans want to go back, it'll be LOI from now on. If the new entity plays ball with Dungannon et al then there's no reason for the IFA to go after Derry, other than a dogmatic adherence to jurisdiction law.

[-lamb-]

UEFA's position on Derry is clear, as is the FAI's and, most importantly, the Derry fans.

the fans are in no position of power to make ANY decisions tbh. they could huff and puff but when it boils down to it, they haven't much say.
you are basing uefa's position on their opinion a quarter of a century ago. who knows what their position would be if any club going under the name derry city had to justify that their current situation required jurisdiction exemption? certainly none of us do. we would only be guessing.

[EalingGreen]

Realistically, however, the IFA arn't going to prevent Derry from rejoining the LOI just because the law says they can. UEFA's position on Derry is clear, as is the FAI's and, most importantly, the Derry fans. Forcing the issue in such a blunt fashion would be naive and, more likely, become a political nightmare. Who wants that?

The precedent's been set and until Derry fans want to go back, it'll be LOI from now on. If the new entity plays ball with Dungannon et al then there's no reason for the IFA to go after Derry, other than a dogmatic adherence to jurisdiction law.

All of which demonstrates why (imo) by concentrating solely on the debt to the IL clubs, you and other DCFC fans are missing the point.

For if we really are talking about a new club, then the onus should not be on the IFA to show why it (club) may not play in another jurisdiction, rather it should be on the new club to show how/why it may.

Otherwise, if it is just the old club with a new makeover, then it should only be allowed to resume its former place in the LOI on the same basis as Wellvan left it i.e responsible for its debts, and with any applicable points deductions applied etc

By contrast, the significance of it being a "new" club is that it is that which would permit them to present themselves to the FAI as "debt-free". And if they are a new club, not only should they be required to justify their playing in another jurisdiction, but one might also expect their application to join the FAI's pyramid system to be on exactly the same basis as all new clubs.

You can't have it both ways (imo).

[belfastred]

Is it just me or is anyone else a bit freaked out by the OBSESSION that the IL clubs about Derry...like get over it,they want to stay in LOI and to my knowledge nobody wants them to leave...so get over it!!!

Surely Derry have gone are are to be replaced by a new Derry club based in Northern Ireland.

Surely this new Northern Ireland club will need special dispensation to join the LOI

[SwanVsDalton]

the fans are in no position of power to make ANY decisions tbh. they could huff and puff but when it boils down to it, they haven't much say.
you are basing uefa's position on their opinion a quarter of a century ago. who knows what their position would be if any club going under the name derry city had to justify that their current situation required jurisdiction exemption? certainly none of us do. we would only be guessing.

Continued granting of a UEFA license would suggest otherwise imo. All things considered, it's unlikely UEFA's position on it has, or would, change.

And if your suggesting the fans have no power, I think your well off. If the IFA were to prevent Derry from joining the LOI just because the law says they can, it would cause a political storm. It would be perceived as the second time the north's footballing powers had prevented senior football in Derry. In short, it would be a nightmare.

Derry will only return to the IL, if fans back the move. Just because the fans don't actually make the decisions, doesn't mean they don't have a huge say.

Hey! We didn't ask for 13 years in the footballing wilderness, before 25 in a different jurisdiction. But them the breaks. It don't just go away.