Electronic Voting

**Macy** · 09/02/2004, 4:51 PM

Originally posted by S�Ccfc
Its a private position he holds as director of elections for FF. Nothing to do with his portfolio as a Minister, about as relevant as him being the captain of the local golf club.

That's okay then

**parnell ranger** · 09/02/2004, 5:10 PM

"Now here's another fact for you to ponder: Martin Cullen, the Minister responsible for rolling out this system, is Fianna F�il's Director of Elections".

Waheeyyyyy! An overall majority!

**dahamsta** · 09/02/2004, 5:11 PM

With respect Soc, that's a ridiculous statement. Although local golf clubs are notoriously political, the future of the country doesn't rest upon what "our jack said about their maureen". We're talking about the foundation of our democracy. His job as director of elections is to deliver as many votes to Fianna F�il as possible, and here's a mechanism that could be used to that end. The conflict of interest is enormous.

adam

**brendy_�ire** · 09/02/2004, 5:23 PM

Originally posted by Macy
And what if I wanted to stand and couldn't get the support? For example in the local elections you need 15 people from the area to nominate you.

Anyone can get 15 signatures. Go out on the street and ask people if you're that badly stuck. The 15 signatures requirement is there to stop people sticking their name down for the craic of it.

Originally posted by Macy
What about the democratic right not to vote? And if you are to have compulsory voting, IMO a "None of the above" would be essential.

I don't believe anyone should have a right not to vote. It's not fair that some e just leave it up to someone else to run the country. What if we all took that attitude? It's everyone's country, therefore we all have a responibility to help run it.

Originally posted by Macy
Having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system, and you don't see a potential conflict?

I do, aye. Should really be someone else, an independent body ideally.

Originally posted by Macy
The old system is trustworthy because each vote can be gone over, and re-counts called if necessary. Basically repeating whats been said before, but every stage is checked and verified.

You still put your trust down to those who count it however. You have no way of knowing whether your vote has been properly counted.

Originally posted by Macy
As for computer error - take it you don't use computer systems, and Access in particular, that often?

There is possibility for computer error, but, as is said for MS Access, GIGO.

Originally posted by Macy
btw As a matter of interest, do you have a vote here or in the North? If it's the North you're happy to argue the case for us to have this system, whilst you happily use the tried and trusted pen and paper...

The North. But I'd be more than happy to see it introduced here (which undoubtly it will be at some stage).

Sheridan · 09/02/2004, 5:26 PM

Originally posted by dahamsta
With respect Soc, that's a ridiculous statement. Although local golf clubs are notoriously political, the future of the country doesn't rest upon what "our jack said about their maureen". We're talking about the foundation of our democracy here for god's sake. His job as director of elections is to deliver as many votes to Fianna F�il as possible, and here's a mechanism that could be used to that end. The conflict of interest is enormous.

I think it's a bit optimistic to expect people to be up in arms over a possible conflict of interest, in a country where endless revelations of actual corruption have failed to perturb the general public.

**the scout** · 09/02/2004, 7:01 PM

re the poll:

any chance of a recount??????????

**dahamsta** · 09/02/2004, 10:13 PM

No problem, I'll just check the database.

Code:

[abeecher@johnhoop abeecher]$ mysql -u root -p
Enter password:
Welcome to the MySQL monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
Your MySQL connection id is 301527 to server version: 3.23.58

Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer.

mysql> use footie;
Reading table information for completion of table and column names
You can turn off this feature to get a quicker startup with -A

Database changed
mysql> SELECT votes FROM poll WHERE pollid=264;
+---------+
| votes   |
+---------+
| 0|||999 |
+---------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)

There ya go. Sure and begorrah, the computer can't be wrong!

adam

**Macy** · 10/02/2004, 8:24 AM

Originally posted by brendy_eire
Anyone can get 15 signatures. Go out on the street and ask people if you're that badly stuck. The 15 signatures requirement is there to stop people sticking their name down for the craic of it.

What a great day for democracy that would be.....

Originally posted by brendy_eire
I don't believe anyone should have a right not to vote. It's not fair that some e just leave it up to someone else to run the country. What if we all took that attitude? It's everyone's country, therefore we all have a responibility to help run it.

Of course you have the right not to vote. Voting is just expressing your opinion on who you want to run the country. If we all took the attitude of not voting, it would force the political parties to look at why people don't vote, rather than now where it's mainly in disadvantaged areas where the politicians couldn't give a f�ck about....

Originally posted by brendy_eire
You still put your trust down to those who count it however. You have no way of knowing whether your vote has been properly counted.

Yes, with tallymen/women from all those standing looking over their shoulders, and the chance to go over every single vote over and over again if necessary.

Originally posted by brendy_eire
There is possibility for computer error, but, as is said for MS Access, GIGO

And no way of checking manually, or plan if one does go wrong

Originally posted by brendy_eire
But I'd be more than happy to see it introduced here (which undoubtly it will be at some stage).

I doubt very much that it will be introduced in such a rushed manner, without necessary testing, and with no way of following a vote through the system...

**Macy** · 10/02/2004, 8:25 AM

Originally posted by dahamsta
No problem, I'll just check the database.
There ya go. Sure and begorrah, the computer can't be wrong!

adam

**the 12 th man** · 10/02/2004, 8:33 AM

Originally posted by dahamsta
No problem, I'll just check the database.

adam

what about putting in a real poll.

1 would you prefer electronic voting
2 would you prefer manual voting
3 dont care either way (maybe other options could be added).

**NorthoftheLee** · 10/02/2004, 8:39 AM

1 would you prefer electronic voting
2 would you prefer manual voting
3 dont care either way (maybe other options could be added).

1. would you prefer electronic voting with no ticker trail
2. would you prefer a verified and completely tested electronic voting system with the ability for a ticker trail
3. would you prefer manual voting
4. dont care either way

**dahamsta** · 10/02/2004, 8:50 AM

That is a real poll. I'm the Foot.ie Minister for Environment and Local Government and I'm responsible for implementing polling across the Foot.ie website. I contracted this poll out to a third-party and they implemented it for me here on Foot.ie. I trust this third-party implicitly and I'm convinced that the poll was conducted fairly and impartially.

The system was fully tested by another third-party, who examined 1/3 of the source code and hardware that is now deprecated and will no longer be used. Furthermore, they will be asked to test the system again shortly, even though the system that will be used in the next poll will be completely different.

However, if you feel that the poll is incorrect in some way, please let me know and I'll be happy to do another recount.

It's Easier For Everyone!

(It's certainly easier for me!)

adam

**the 12 th man** · 10/02/2004, 11:00 AM

wait for it,wait for it!!!!

**pete** · 10/02/2004, 11:02 AM

People who campaign for the right to spoil a vot e are the same people who choose voter 'Don't Know' on polls. Nobody ever said elections were about voting for the person who represents you - its all about voting for the best person from the options presented. I might not like candidates A, B, C & D but maybe I would prefer candidate B instead of any of the others...

Sure if people don't like the electronic voting they can always vote against the govt as a protest

**Macy** · 10/02/2004, 11:05 AM

Despite Cullen being the most pig ignorant dick in Government (can't believe he left the PD's tbh) and his opinions on donations, I don't necessarily think he's corrupt. However, having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system is ridiculous...

btw I'm sure Soc will stick up for you too...

**S�C** · 10/02/2004, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Macy
Despite Cullen being the most pig ignorant dick in Government (can't believe he left the PD's tbh) and his opinions on donations, I don't necessarily think he's corrupt. However, having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system is ridiculous...

btw I'm sure Soc will stick up for you too...

Maybe they'll put a 'I hate FF and Cork, I should have the right to spoil my vote' button on it just for you Macy.

Macy you should know how these things work.

Minister says he wants electronic voting. Civil Servants do all the planning, preparations etc. Minister comes back a few months later to smile with the pretty girls.

You boys give the impression that the minisiter sits there with the source code late at night laughing like Side Show Bob. Him being Director for Elections for FF is a private matter. Would it matter if he was gay and introducing sexual equality legislation?

The system works on the basis that the people elect the TDs who they believe will repersent their view in the programmes for Government. There has to be an element of trust in politics of else you'd just have anarachy.

Re: Software. Is there any way of safely testing software so?

**dahamsta** · 10/02/2004, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by S�Ccfc
Minister says he wants electronic voting. Civil Servants do all the planning, preparations etc. Minister comes back a few months later to smile with the pretty girls.

It works both ways though:

Minister says he wants electronic voting because he knows it can be manipulated, and manipulation cannot be proven because there is no independent audit trail.

I'm not suggesting that this is the case, simply that it's not simply the case of "the Minister says he wants electronic voting". The fact alone that a �90m project has been pushed through so quickly raises all sorts of questions.

You boys give the impression that the minisiter sits there with the source code late at night laughing like Side Show Bob.

Cullen wouldn't know source code if it came up and bit him on the arse, and no-one is suggesting anything of the sort. People are simply trying to demonstrate potential conflicts of interest. The issue here is the security of the system as a whole, which has not been proven. Sure there are worries that someone (and not just Fianna F�il either, Nedap/Powervote is in an even more favourable position, as is Tony O'Reilly and his ilk) may try to manipulate elections, but the possibility of error is just as powerful.

Him being Director for Elections for FF is a private matter. Would it matter if he was gay and introducing sexual equality legislation?

If the legislation gave a massive tax break to homosexuals, even for very good reason, then yes it would. A conflict of interest is a conflict of interest, no matter how righteous the situation, and not being able to see that is blinkered. The conflict should be judged primarily on potential, and the potential here is enormous. He should have stood down as FF DE when he became the Minister.

The system works on the basis that the people elect the TDs who they believe will repersent their view in the programmes for Government. There has to be an element of trust in politics of else you'd just have anarachy.

Of course there has to be an element of trust, however dozens and dozens of technologists have come out against this. Not respecting their opinion is much akin to Liam Murphy's (???) comments about City fans a year or two ago, that they haven't a clue about football. Everyone came out in righteous indignation when that happened -- this is the same thing. Moreover, the only technologists that have come out for the system, the people that tested it, didn't actually test it fully.

Re: Software. Is there any way of safely testing software so?

Yes. But it takes more than a second of review per line of source code, you need to see /all/ of the source code, and you can't change the source code half way through. Moreover, you'd express concerns if the software was going to be run on a deprecated operating system, and you'll be a little bit worried if the data was going into a Microsoft Access database with only a password for security. All that's before we even get to the hardware...

I see a lot of people defending this, but I have yet to come across a valid argument in favour of the system technologically. People can yak about spolied votes and time-saving all they want, but when the security of the system is in doubt by people that truly /understand/ systems, it's time to sit back and take stock.

By the way, here's another one for you: Cullen and his cronies have been saying that there will be "significant savings in staff costs at counting stage", which is absolutely true. However when taken as a whole, the extra person required to operate the machines will result in an extra 2000 man-days being required to run an election.

adam

**yur man** · 10/02/2004, 4:37 PM

i trust the tek people before the advocates of the new system. and as we all know, computer crashes are often unrecoverable. that wud freak me out if my vote was lost

i wud prefer a bit of paper to punch a whole in and have them electronically read it. it wud be a good balance between the old and new ways. but also have a better system than in florida for spoiled votes

what wud be wrong with the machine givin a signal that it read the vote ok. if not then the person cud get a new votin paper

**John83** · 23/02/2004, 6:10 PM

Up to 18 counties asked to add safeguards
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 Posted: 1629 GMT (12:29 AM HKT)

SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- Two weeks before California's presidential primary, a group alleging widespread security holes in electronic voting machines has asked a judge to make counties install new safeguards.

linkey

**Peadar** · 24/02/2004, 8:23 AM

Originally posted by John83
Two weeks before California's presidential primary, a group alleging widespread security holes in electronic voting machines

Their machines are online and therefore it's possible to dial into them. The machines in Ireland are stand-alone.
It is possible to have a receipt printer attached which could facilitate the paper trail that most people agree is necessary.