QuoteYou can claim an Irish passport without having Irish parentage, so the "those who have Irish parentage" clause is irrelevantOriginally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Why does there have to be a limit on incoming players and who in your opinion would demand parentage as a means to citizenship rather than what we presently have? You seem to be pushing a very myopic and biased opinion with this argument.
Last edited by gastric; 14/08/2015 at 8:26 AM.
What I suggested was players who already went to the effort of procuring a passport or possessed dual citizenship.
There is too much hemming and hawing over this kind of stuff and it has become all too cynical. Whatever good intentions were there when these rules were put in place, they have been eroded big time in my opinion.
It should be streamlined. The kind of behavior we are seeing with players of all ages - procrastinating - in choosing what country they want to declare from is a sad but necessary commodity in club football. It should be stamped out of International football.
It should be a choice made with the heart, not with the pocket.
Maybe he wants to play for England as he was born in England, identifies with England and has always played with England. Maybe if that doesn't work out, he'd also be happy to play for us on account of his heritage. He was brought up in a home very aware of its Irish roots. To say he's simply using us as leverage is a cynical and groundless assumption, but then you know that.
Has he himself actually mentioned Jamaica? Looks like The42.ie included it in the quote within square brackets just to state the fact he's eligible to play for them. It doesn't necessarily indicate he'd consider the option as seriously as he might consider an opportunity to play for us.
You can potentially acquire an Irish passport without even having had Irish grandparents, so long as births of your Irish ancestors have been continuously registered in a line from generation to generation on the Foreign Births Register. The state can also grant honorary Irish passports for willy-nilly if it likes.I think there has to be a rule change somewhere down the line to limit incoming players to those who have Irish parentage and/or Irish passport.
Nobody is demanding he be called up if he's not good enough. I don't know why you keep making this point in relation to eligible players born outside of Ireland, as if people are clamouring to have anyone and everyone with some Irish heritage selected no matter what their level of ability. If he does declare an interest but he isn't deemed good enough, he obviously won't be selected. Just like Richard Stearman; he sorted out his Irish passport long ago but he has been ignored since.There's no ifs, buts and maybes about it we are his second or third choice. And who is to say he is even good enough to play for us? He's certainly not at the moment.
The rules are there to protect young players from "preying" or over-eager associations. That is exactly what they do. They offer dual national players a second (or multiple) choice so as not to stifle a potential international career on account of having played for an association at under-age. They also recognise the complex nature of national identity in an increasingly globalised and multi-national world. Many citizens are dual or multiple nationals nowadays. It's only appropriate FIFA would recognise this.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you supply a few examples of players "procrastinating" (besides Grealish)?
Who's to say that any decision by Redmond to play for us wouldn't be one made with his heart? Can't he have real sentiment for both England and Ireland?It should be a choice made with the heart, not with the pocket.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 14/08/2015 at 12:28 PM.
It's not a cynical and groundless assumption. It is fact. His own mother said England was his team and pooh-poohed the notion of declaring for Ireland but I am sure you know better than her. And yes Redmond is of Jamaican descent and there is as much chance of him playing for them as there is of playing for us. And if he considered playing for us over Jamaica the reality is it would probably be because Ireland play in European Championship qualifiers and have a greater chance of playing in International tournaments.
Richard Stearman accrued his passport because he wanted to play International football. Why didn't he have an Irish passport before this? Fair enough he showed the foresight to get one, but we all know the reasons he got it in his mid-twenties - and excuse me, but I find it cynical and devaluing.
Look at me. Here I am going down the rabbit hole with (t)his nonsense again.
Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 14/08/2015 at 12:35 PM.
He was responding to a question about playing for Jamaica. Full interview available here:
You are an Englishman with Jamaican heritage. Continue playing the way you are, you might have a decision to make.
“I can still play one more campaign with the England under-21s. And that will be my third campaign. So I can still play for them, but I’m still viable to play for England seniors, and I qualify to play for the Republic of Ireland seniors, too. So when the time hopefully comes to play international football, I’ll have to decide [between England, Jamaica and the Republic of Ireland]. But right now I just want to focus on having a strong Premier League season.”
Read more at http://www.sport-magazine.co.uk/feat...HQiSBJYss3p.99
They are exploited by players looking to play for one country because they aren't good enough for another more than they help players the way you want to portray. Redmond and Bamford have both said they might play for us if they aren't good enough for England. Christie said this. Noble said as much. These are just the highest profile examples.
He doesn't have a sentiment for Ireland. I would not be commenting right now if he did...
Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 14/08/2015 at 12:31 PM.
And I'm the one making cynical and groundless assumptions.
Maybe he should practice what he preaches.
There are a lot of Irish names in Jamaica too, so can't read too much into that.
I've not claimed to know anything about Redmond's intentions. You're the only one making assumptions as to his thoughts and plans. I've merely offered alternative possibilities to the false dilemma you present. Just because he's of Jamaican descent doesn't mean he's as equally likely to play for them as he is to play for us. You rely on the alleged words of Redmond's mother now (although you exaggerate them with evocative terminology like "pooh-poohed" and suggest she ruled out absolutely the prospect of him playing for Ireland, which wasn't the case as she didn't go into any detail on that) but dismissed Olé Olé when he mentioned Bamford's uncles up-thread?: "I don't know what Bamford's uncles have to do with anything - they aren't making his decision for him..." At least be consistent if you're going to bring the opinions of relatives into it to support your argument now.
Ignore me if you want, but I'm not baiting you, nor am I compelling you to respond. I'm trying to have a civil discussion with you, but, for some reason, you have to make a big deal out of it every time I ever challenge something you say.
I would suggest that to be what one might call a leading question and how he responded was interesting. I'm open to correction, of course, but I would interpret it as him having passively agreed and then discussed anything but his Jamaican heritage/eligibility; not something I would consider particularly insightful, however, in terms of national affiliation or solid future intentions, nor indicative of a preference between Ireland and Jamaica if it came down to it.
"Exploitation" is your own interpretation of the instance when a dual or multiple national player considers his options, but that's exactly why the current regulations were put in place; to protect player choice. Algeria and others in the north African francophone bloc were some of the main associations pushing for the change because they stood to benefit from France-born nationals declaring in their favour after having represented France at under-age but with no real prospect of a senior career with France. The case of Tim Cahill, who was originally tied to Samoa before the rule-change, having played for their under-20s at the age of 14, was also persuasive. It's not like potentially-benefiting associations are suffering tangible loss if a player isn't good enough to play for his first choice.
Did Christie say that? (Forgive me if I request you supply a quote to verify your assertion.) He didn't "procrastinate" though, did he? He accepted the call for us when it came. And I'm not sure the others are examples of procrastination either. Procrastination would be to be holding off on making a decision; Redmond, Bamford and Noble have all been perfectly clear that England are priority for them. That is their decision at the present moment in time, but if it doesn't work out, they may make another decision (with the exception of Noble, who doesn't appear to have any sentiment for Ireland whatsoever and has said as much). If the England senior team offered them all call-ups tomorrow, they'd all accept. It's not as if the FAI or Irish fans are any worse off out of all of it, so why get so worked up about it?
And how do you know Redmond has no sentiment for Ireland?
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 14/08/2015 at 1:28 PM.
His (single) mother is Michelle Redmond and her father was Irish, as confirmed by Wangball, so I think that would have to mean her father was an Irish Redmond, wouldn't it? Of course, there remains the slim chance Nathan's father might also have been a Jamaican Redmond or that Michelle adopted the surname for some unknown reason.
16 Year Old Nathan
I'm not making assumptions to his thoughts and plans. He has chosen to play for England. He has implicitly stated that he will play for Jamaica or Ireland if his International career with England does not work out. How is he less likely to play for Jamaica than us? He is an Englishman of Jamaican and Irish heritage. Redmond chose to play for England of his own volition. Bamford has chosen to play for England of his own volition. They have both stated more or less that the only way they'll play for Ireland is if an England career doesn't work out. I sincerely don't know what Bamford's uncles possibly wearing Ireland kits have to do with anything. It's an individual choice and they have made theirs.
You are not having a civil discussion. You are being rude. You said I was making cynical and groundless assumptions and then you did the exact same thing in your next post, and got pulled up on it!
The players I refer to are exploiting it IMO. They want to play for England. Ireland is their second choice. The sad thing is there genuinely are players who have a connection to more than one country and this crap belittles, devalues and saturates it.
What Christie said is old hat. I posted it here before. He is open about the reasons he declared for Ireland - because he knew he wasn't good enough to play for England. Sorry Christie didn't procrastinate at all because he wasn't going to get capped at any level, like say Callum Wilson. He had nothing to procrastinate about.
How do I know? If he felt Irish, he would play for Ireland. It's as simple as that. He has never once passed comment about identifying as Irish or having any kind of decision to make about this.
Declaring for Ireland doesn't make Simon Cox or Anthony Pilkington any more Irish than Wayne Rooney. Rooney considers himself fully English and has stated that he never once considered playing for Ireland. He still goes to Celtic games and decks his son out in an Ireland kit on St Paddy's day.
So if Redmond, Bamford, Noble, Naughton, Wilson or whoever else play for Ireland once they reach 26 or 27 it won't make them any more Irish and won't annoy me any less.
Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 14/08/2015 at 3:27 PM.
I haven't made any assertions as to the likelihood. Only one making assertions here was you. I have simply suggested there's no reason to assume what his preference might be after England. You simply don't know whether this is true or not: "And yes Redmond is of Jamaican descent and there is as much chance of him playing for them as there is of playing for us." How do you know this? If you have no means of backing it up, I'm afraid it's not me being rude; it's you making a groundless assumption.
Fine, but carrying this logic to its conclusion (I'm not saying it's right or wrong; just highlighting the inconsistency evident therein), what then do the words of Michelle Redmond have to do with anything? Just like Bamford's uncles won't be making Bamford's decision, Michelle Redmond won't be making her son's decision. You were happy to appeal to (and misrepresent) her words to support a point you were making, whilst you dismissed Olé Olé when he mentioned the possibility of influence upon Bamford from Bamford's uncles on account of the lad having publicly spoken about them.I sincerely don't know what Bamford's uncles possibly wearing Ireland kits have to do with anything. It's an individual choice and they have made theirs.
Out of interest, who are these genuine cases if you think all the other examples you've mentioned are frauds?The sad thing is there genuinely are players who have a connection to more than one country and this crap belittles, devalues and saturates it.
Found the post: http://foot.ie/threads/194636-Cyrus-...=1#post1791081What Christie said is old hat. I posted it here before. He is open about the reasons he declared for Ireland - because he knew he wasn't good enough to play for England. Sorry Christie didn't procrastinate at all because he wasn't going to get capped at any level, like say Callum Wilson. He had nothing to procrastinate about.
He said the fact we've not got an abundance of right-backs "was the main thing", which would also leave open the possibility of other factors having played at least some part. He also quickly dismissed simultaneous English youth interest so deserves credit for that. He later declared himself honoured to have made his international debut, which is positive sentiment expressed for having donned the jersey.
Dual or multiple national players can make decisions for more than one reason. Different factors may combine to make a particular option more appealing. It doesn't always have to be a case of one or the other extreme where they've declared for us either because they've always felt dyed-in-the-wool Irish or because they're shameless mercenaries. This will explain the problem with the logic of your thinking here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
But it's not as simple as that. Without assuming how Redmond personally identifies (although Joe has posted a tweet where he referred to himself as "half-Irish" directly above your post), it's possible to feel both English and Irish and to even play for England. Martin Keown, Brian McDermott and Kevin Gallen are examples of players who were in that situation, no?How do I know? If he felt Irish, he would play for Ireland. It's as simple as that. He has never once passed comment about identifying as Irish or having any kind of decision to make about this.
You are the only one making groundless assumptions. He is an England International. He wants to play for England. He doesn't want to play for Jamaica or Ireland. He has no preference between the two. He implied that he will keep his options open if his England career doesn't work out. You gave the impression he would want to play for Ireland as his second choice. He said nothing to construe this. He said nothing of any Irish heritage. He simply alluded to declaring for one of the other countries he is eligible for as a matter, purely, of course.
Lad, Redmond's mother said he has chosen England. The most densest person could read between the lines that he wants to play for England. You're obviously an intelligent person so IDK why you (pretend?) not to grasp that. Patrick Bamford is also quite open about England being his first choice. If Bamford's uncles had said Bamford was choosing Ireland, perhaps it would be relevant. It's a personal decision. People can talk about malevolent interference from national organizations, managers, friends and fathers, but it has no relevance with grown men.
Frauds? We're not talking about Bernie Madoff here. I simply could not be arsed pursuing mediocre footballers that do not want to play for Ireland for altruistic reasons and I think the rules should be more stringent and streamlined. You want to talk about genuine cases? Adnan Januzaj, Xherdan Shaqiri, Raheem Sterling to French players of Algerian heritage due to the mass emigrations of one generation before to Kevin Kilbane, Gary Breen and players of immigrant parents. That's genuine cases. Not Callum Wilson, Patrick Bamford, Joe Garner, Mark Noble and several other high profile cases that were/are, quite frankly IMO, making a mockery of the eligibility rules.
You are being deliberately obtuse by bringing up that article. You know fully well that is not the article I was alluding to. I was referring to this article http://www.the42.ie/cyrus-christie-r...74306-Nov2014/ where he says that he declared for Ireland because there was less competition in his position.
False dilemma? No, not interested. The reason all the players I mentioned aren't playing for Ireland right now isn't because of a "false dilemma".
I wouldn't read anything into himself describing himself as half Irish and half Jamaican in his ethnic make up, not least because he is an Englishman playing for his country. Ask any celebrity to describe their ethnic make up on Twitter and they will respond e.g. 1/5 Puerto Rican, 1/4 Irish, a 1/3 German. For god's sake Urijah Faber and Chad Mendes have described themselves as part Irish and they have spent the better part of the last year mocking Conor McGregor's heritage. So, presumably by your logic they are Irish too - or maybe you are being obtuse again.
Eh yeah. Didn't I just say that Wayne Rooney plays for England, said he would never consider playing for Ireland and he is openly of Irish heritage? Or did you miss that? All of those players chose to play for England so not sure how that's disproving my point, seems to be bolstering it if anything. You seem to think an English player like Luke Chambers or Richard Stearman declaring for Ireland is a sign of them acknowledging and paying tribute to their proud Irish roots, when it's dubious that's the case.
TOWK, we got your point of view ages ago, why continue to try and justify it to others who don't share it? Most on here are realists, we need to rely on the Irish diaspora as we aren't producing quality players. How can you come up with a stupid argument that will never happen as in limiting players born overseas and not accepting players whose grandparents are Irish? Respect others' opinions and stop acting like a WUM. Read Tets' post 1382 and stop playing the victim when challenged by the likes of Danny. You create the issue, accept it when you are corrected by others.
Gastric the other day on the turnpike there was this horrible crash....and there is video of this guy getting out of a fiery 18 wheeler and he is actually on fire...he keeps running so it gets worse and he is like engulfed in flames...so a lot of cars just keep driving by...but one car stops and the people get out and tackle him and put the fire out and save his life...Aussie tourists as it turns out. I thought you would be proud.
No Somos muchos pero estamos locos.
I don't know why anyone even bothers with him on this type of stuff? He hates anyone 2G who doesn't make the Irish jersey a priority and he hates Robbie Keane who did nothing but make the Irish jersey a priority. He's a joke shop.
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