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Thread: Potentially eligible players thread

  1. #1001
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    Trap, I think you are being unnecessarily hard on the FAI.

    There has been a concerted push from the last two managers and the FAI to acquire eligible players.

    Naughton does not want to play for Ireland. Davies does not want to play for Ireland. You cannot force the issue any more. If they don't want to play for Ireland, they don't want to play for Ireland. With that (lack of) motivation, they are probably not going to be a great loss. There seems to be a grass is greener on the other side line of thinking from Irish fans, yet most Hull fans would probably have McShane in their team ahead of Davies.

    Bamford & Keane played briefly for Ireland, and stopped playing for Ireland, because they believe they can play for England. The FAI acted quickly in getting these lads on board at a young age. I'm not sure why they don't get praised for that, yet they pick up the blame when the players' faith isn't reciprocated in kind.

    Noble has been actively - aggressively even - pursued by successive management regimes. The lad is just not interested. He halfheartedly said that Ireland would be a second choice and that he dreams of an England call up. Fair play to him. He's honest. Don't see what more/what the FAI can do to change his mind.

    Redmond is English and currently plays for England at underage level. He is held in high esteem by the current England management regime. The kid hasn't even stated once that he is eligible for Ireland. The same newspaper reports that stated he was being pursued by O'Neill also stated that Sean Morrison was eligible for Ireland, which he wasn't, so I wouldn't pin my hopes on that one for various reasons.

    Harry Kane was not and is not going to play for Ireland. He has said as much. He is the best English striker, on form, and one of the best strikers in the league. It's not going to happen and there is no point in even pursuing it.

    The onus is ultimately on the player at the end of the day to decide if he wants to play for Ireland.

    Luke Chambers has spoken of his desire to play for Ireland. So has Richard Stearman.

    The players are out there. Targets may just have to be set a little lower, and be a little more realistic.
    Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 18/01/2015 at 4:07 PM.

  2. #1002
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrapAPony View Post
    Noble, Kane, Redmond, McManaman, Davies, Bamford, Naughton etc. ...there's enough half decent players available that could do a job for us but the FAI do not have the ability to get any of them. Kane was there for the taking for a few years but the FAI I'm sure sat back on it and now there's no chance. This Jason McCarthy lad is probably eligible. Instead of going for him now, watch the FAI sit back for a year or two & wait for him to get a few more appearances under his belt. By then he'll be offered an English U21 cap & the chance will be lost. Sure they couldn't even hold on to Michael Keane who has an Irish father or they couldn't convince Shane O'Neill to play for us despite having two Irish parents from Cork & Kerry. I have none to little faith any more in FAI re recruitment at senior level.
    The FAI have made enquiries, sometimes multiple it would seem, with many of the players you name, and more. What more can they do if a player simply has no interest?

    On the other hand and using the same logic, shouldn't they then be commended for securing dual-eligibles like James McCarthy, Aiden McGeady, Ciaran Clark, David McGoldrick (Scotland were on his chase) and the northern-born Irish players as well as for selecting the likes of Jack Grealish from early on? If Grealish eventually decides to switch to England, it won't be through lack of attention given by the FAI.

    Just on Noble, have we actually been pursuing him aggressively? A lot of the Noble speculation has been media-driven, no? Do we have evidence that the FAI have been chasing after him for years?

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Also, it was Shane Long who first suggested that Sean Morrison was interested and eligible whilst both were at Reading: http://greenscene.me/2011/04/shane-l...ding-converts/

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Scene
    In an interview with the Evening Herald on Thursday, striker Shane Long (who is the Championship’s second highest scorer with 20 goals) stated that two more of the Reading squad have Irish connections, and was informed of goalkeeper Alex McCarthy’s Irish lineage. “I didn’t know about Alex McCarthy but I knew about Sean alright”, Long told the Evening Herald. “Sean Morrison is a bit of an Irish name. I knew he wanted to [play for Ireland]. I think there’s another lad, Alex Pearce, a centre-back going for it. There’s a few coming out of the woodwork.

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawn79 View Post
    I hope this is the place to put lads that you might think are eligible into.

    I spotted the name McCarthy coming on for Southampton yesterday against Newcastle.
    Jason McCarthy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_McCarthy. Good chance he must have some irish relations (particularly with his 2nd name being Sean) - a natural leader and a rightback / centre-back by the sounds of it. Hasn't played for England to date but the Southampton academy seems to be producing some great players at the moment. I haven't seen the name mentioned here before.
    I asked him if he's eligible on Twitter. I'm still waiting on a reply.

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    It must feel really weird being a narrow-minded hypocrite for once.

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    He's only eligible for England.

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    Cox, St Ledger, Walters, Westwood, Elliot, Clark, Christie, Pilkington, Pearce and Green are not Irish surnames.

    Richard Keogh is the only English born Irish International named in a recent squad who possesses an Irish surname. David McGoldrick shares the same surname as his adoptive parents, whom are not of Irish lineage.

    Hayhurst, Rea, Grego-Cox, Watkins-Clark, Carruthers, Wilkinson, Hamilton, Sadlier, Garmston, Lewis and Roberts are all recent Irish underage caps with surnames that are distinctly not Irish.

    They vastly outnumber any recent English born Irish underage caps who have Irish surnames.

    Stearman, Chambers, Bamford, Noble, Davies, Redmond..... not Irish surnames.

    Martin Kelly, Jon Flanagan, Marc Tierney.... some English born players with Irish sounding surnames, add McCarthy to the list, who are not eligible and/or uninterested.

    Yes. An Irish surname is an indicator but it's not that great an indicator. Just my opinion.

    If an English born player gets into the first team of a Premier League club, the chances of him playing for Ireland subside. If an English born player wants to play for Ireland, he will do so. If an English born player plays more than 11 minutes of senior football and/or plays with merit at youth team level he will come to the attention of the FAI. Chances of an eligible player having a name that isn't Irish are substantially greater for a number of reasons.

    Sorry to bawn79 if I offended you with my comments. It wasn't my intention in doing so. What seems humorous banter to me may not be seen in a similar way to someone else.

    I don't think I owe anyone else an apology though. Were that the case, then there would be a lot of mea culpas!

    I don't want to stop anyone from conjecturing over players. It's just my opinion that it is not a particularly worthwhile experience. That is all.

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    I thought McGoldrick's adoptive parents are of Irish descent?

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    They are? Well he's only eligible through his birth mother anyway. I figured the Scottish genes would have come from his adoptive family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    I thought McGoldrick's adoptive parents are of Irish descent?
    Dave McGoldrick's adopted parents are of irish lineage, he is doubly eligible via birth mother and adopted parents' connection to Ireland.

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    It would be interesting to know where the link to Scotland comes from.

    It's so confusing and there has been so many discrepancies about this that you would have to ask the man himself.

    I'll try and hunt down an article.

    Edit: He is not "doubly" eligible as his adoptive parent/s alleged links to the country are too far back. Once he proved that his birth mother's father was indeed of Irish descent, the path was cleared for him to finally begin the process of playing for Ireland.
    Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 19/01/2015 at 8:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    Cox, St Ledger, Walters, Westwood, Elliot, Clark, Christie, Pilkington, Pearce and Green are not Irish surnames.

    Richard Keogh is the only English born Irish International named in a recent squad who possesses an Irish surname. David McGoldrick shares the same surname as his adoptive parents, whom are not of Irish lineage.

    Hayhurst, Rea, Grego-Cox, Watkins-Clark, Carruthers, Wilkinson, Hamilton, Sadlier, Garmston, Lewis and Roberts are all recent Irish underage caps with surnames that are distinctly not Irish.

    They vastly outnumber any recent English born Irish underage caps who have Irish surnames.

    Stearman, Chambers, Bamford, Noble, Davies, Redmond..... not Irish surnames.

    Martin Kelly, Jon Flanagan, Marc Tierney.... some English born players with Irish sounding surnames, add McCarthy to the list, who are not eligible and/or uninterested.

    Yes. An Irish surname is an indicator but it's not that great an indicator. Just my opinion.

    If an English born player gets into the first team of a Premier League club, the chances of him playing for Ireland subside. If an English born player wants to play for Ireland, he will do so. If an English born player plays more than 11 minutes of senior football and/or plays with merit at youth team level he will come to the attention of the FAI. Chances of an eligible player having a name that isn't Irish are substantially greater for a number of reasons.

    Sorry to bawn79 if I offended you with my comments. It wasn't my intention in doing so. What seems humorous banter to me may not be seen in a similar way to someone else.

    I don't think I owe anyone else an apology though. Were that the case, then there would be a lot of mea culpas!

    I don't want to stop anyone from conjecturing over players. It's just my opinion that it is not a particularly worthwhile experience. That is all.
    As someone interested in this sort of thing, the names in bold can indeed be Irish surnames. They can of course also be of non-irish origin, but it's nice to see you stating as fact that they definitely 'not Irish surnames'.

    Cox (Mac an Choiligh), Clark (Ó Cléirigh), Green (O'hUaithin), Rea (MacRaith), Lewis (Mac Lughaidh) can be anglicanisations of gaelic-Irish names, whereas Redmond is an Hiberno-Norman surname found largely in those of Irish descent. The name Sadlier is proportionally highest found in Ireland despite having Germanic roots, being introduced from England during the plantation-era.

    It's funny to see you complaining about people 'conjecturing' over players with Irish surnames, only to then incorrectly state that these surnames are definitely not Irish.

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    Possibly there are mixed message re McGoldricks adoptive parents floating around.
    here "Nottingham-born McGoldrick, who qualifies for Ireland via both his biological and adoptive parents, trained with his new international team-mates, including fellow Blues striker Daryl Murphy, for the first time today."

    Even if the adoptive parents didn't actually endow the eligibility, they gave David his irish sounding surname due to their irish connection and that's germane to the recent discussion. But obviously if a footballer was eligible due to his Irish mother and who happened to take on the surname of a non irishman, then the chances are that the family name will not be sounding Irish.

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    @ Irwin

    Thanks for being pedantic and, inadvertently, proving my point.

    None of those names are Irish surnames, whatever way you swing it. They may be anglicisations of Irish surnames, as you say, complete conjecture on your part. There are anglicisations of Italian, German, Spanish and French surnames too. Hundreds of common English surnames are anglicisations of names that originated as French, German, Scandinavian... It works the other way too with Irish surnames.

    "Chances of an eligible player having a name that isn't Irish are substantially greater for a number of reasons."

    One of those reasons being the aforementioned anglicisation of Irish surnames.

    Which brings me to my final point (back in circles).

    People are conjecturing over players eligibility simply because their surname is typically Irish i.e. Gallagher, McCarthy. They don't conjecture over names like Clark, Redmond and Green, simply because they aren't typically Irish. And most of our new recruits names are not typically Irish.

    And what do you know? Jason McCarthy isn't eligible, just like Sam Gallagher and Paul Gallagher before him.
    Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 19/01/2015 at 11:20 PM.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Irwin said the origin of some instances of those names can be Irish/Gaelic, and he is correct. Anyhow, I don't see why it's such a massive issue that the idea of using an Irish surname as a starting point for possible enquiry might prove useful in some instances. If a player with an Irish surname turns out to be ineligible after an enquiry, no harm and no loss whatsoever. If it happens he is eligible, great; we've got another possible option if he's willing and good enough. I don't know how anyone could get wound up by something so innocuous or even potentially useful in some cases. Why don't you tell us with what it is you really have the problem here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    @ Irwin

    Thanks for being pedantic and, inadvertently, proving my point.

    None of those names are Irish surnames, whatever way you swing it. They may be anglicisations of Irish surnames, as you say, complete conjecture on your part. There are anglicisations of Italian, German, Spanish and French surnames too. Hundreds of common English surnames are anglicisations of names that originated as French, German, Italian, Spanish, Scandinavian...

    "Chances of an eligible player having a name that isn't Irish are substantially greater for a number of reasons."

    One of those reasons being the aforementioned anglicisation of Irish surnames.

    Which brings me to my final point (back in circles).

    People are conjecturing over players eligibility simply because their surname is typically Irish i.e. Gallagher, McCarthy. They don't conjecture over names like Clark, Redmond and Green, simply because they aren't prototypically Irish. And most of our new recruits names are prototypically not Irish.

    And what do you know? Jason McCarthy isn't eligible, just like Sam Gallagher and Paul Gallagher before him.
    Let's be clear. The only point I'm proving is correcting the falsehood you told. The bolded names can indeed be of Irish origin. It is not conjecture on my part, thankfully the research has already been done and the information is available to anyone with an interest in seeking it out. Like I stated, these surnames can be of other origins as well. However, what they are definitely not is 'not Irish surnames'.

    Have you heard of the penal laws? You do realise that every Irish name was anglicised? Bar those who have re-rendered their name back into Irish spelling, all Irish names are anglicised.

    Some names have multiple origins. If someone carries the surname Cox that is derived from Mac an Choiligh, it is an Irish surname. It didn't cease to be Irish when the authorities decided to render all surnames into english-friendly spelling.

    Redmond like other Hiberno-Norman surnames is found overwhelmingly in those of Irish descent. Ireland is the country by far that it hails from. Proportionally, these are 15 times more Redmonds in Ireland than any other country. The next highest is Canada, where no doubt these are also of Irish heritage. It's strange that you continue to put it with names that have obvious multiple origins. Like Fitzgerald, Burke, Walsh or other Hiberno-Norman surnames, Redmond is a big alarm-bell for someone with Irish heritage.

    Your need to shout down people because they get curious about a surname is bizarre. No-one is saying anything for definite about the player, it just sets off an alarm-bell about the possibility. I think people are wise enough to know that a surname is usually simply a representation of a persons male-line lineage. No harm in wondering about the possibility.

    This reminds me of the case of Adam Maher. People saw the name and wondered. He ultimately wasn't eligible. Maher is also a rendering of an arabic name. According to your line of thinking the surname Maher is not Irish because there is an alternative unrelated derivation of it? Or this only applies to English names that couldn't possibly have an unrelated Irish origin.

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  19. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    @ Irwin Thanks for being pedantic and, inadvertently, proving my point.
    No pedantry from him at all here.
    And he is quite right in saying they can be Irish names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    Cox, St Ledger....are not Irish surnames
    Hmmm, my grandmother was a Cox from Roscommon. The name Cox in Ireland is derived from the native Gaelic Mac an Choiligh and there are lots of them still in Roscommon and Monaghan.

    The St. Ledgers came to Ireland in the 12th century - perhaps that's not Irish enough?

    Incidentally, my mother was a Prendergast from Waterford. They came over with Strongbow. Does that not qualify as an Irish name (whatever that means)?
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    The source of confusion - not belligerence - on my part comes from the fact that people are conjecturing about the eligibility of players like Jason McCarthy because of their surname and nothing else. I remember it being done with Kyle Lafferty, Grant McCann, Gareth McAuley and David Healy too because of their surnames and none of them identify as Irish - probably because several of those names are also common in Scotland.

    Yes. I take your point on Redmond and Cox. There is still no proof that Redmond is eligible and Cox is eligible through his mother (not his father ironically enough).

    There is an Irish translation for "Wilson" and a multitude of other common English surnames as well. There are common names in Munster that are traced to the French huguenots. The surname "Tonge" was historically common in Wexford. I don't remember anyone conjecturing the eligibility of Michael Tonge though.

    Which brings me to my point.

    People are conjecturing over names like McCarthy & Gallagher on the offchance that they may have some recent Irish lineage and just because they are squad/youth team players at Premier League clubs when it is just as likely that there will be a "Watkins-Clark", "Charsley" or a "Garmston" making progress at a Championship youth team/squad being scouted or *gasps* communicating their eligibility. The bottom line is nobody enquired about Cox's eligibility at the time because they didn't think it was an indicator because of his surname. They would have if he was Simon Murphy or Simon Keating.

    Be honest. Did anyone conjecture over Lewis or Carruthers surnames?

    As I said. There is no conjecture over their surnames for various reasons - possible anglicisation being one of them.

    It still would have been/would be wrong for me to have a go at someone for a harmless comment like enquiring about eligibility though.

    I thought I was making a harmless joke about Jason McCarthy being a nationalist because of his Twitter handle or Ryan Seager being eligible because he had an Irish first name. I thought people would have better senses of humor considering how they poke harmless fun at me all the time - evidently not!

    I'm also genuinely curious as to how when someone conjectures over McCarthy's eligibility, they are taken at face value yet my comment about Seager isn't. Is having an Irish first name not an indicator (however scant) of eligibility? Genuinely curious.
    Last edited by TheOneWhoKnocks; 20/01/2015 at 1:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    I'm also genuinely curious as to how when someone conjectures over McCarthy's eligibility, they are taken at face value yet my comment about Seager isn't.
    For me, it's because you have little or no credibility on most topics. Start accepting you're wrong, and have been proven wrong on multiple occasions instead of whinging about being picked on will help your case.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks View Post
    Is having an Irish first name not an indicator (however scant) of eligibility? Genuinely curious.
    not really, your parents choose your first name, so you can be born in Ireland with a name taken from anything from your grandparents, to locations around the world, to fictional characters, likewise for every child born around the world.
    on the other hand, your surname is set by your family heritage and, as such, is a better indicator of your potential eligiblity
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