Potentially eligible players thread

[geysir]

Perhaps I haven’t explained it properly. Maybe if my name was Yann Geysir you’d be all ears

Yann Hafner wrote about article 8 in one of his papers on eligibility from June 2010
(extracted from the french version)
[Rz 47] The second nationality can be derived from a dual nationality, a nationality which allows a player to represent more than one country or naturalization. In the case of naturalization, it must have been acquired before playing for all or part of an international match of any age category, failing that, article 7 will apply and the player will have to comply with stricter rules.

Actually, Yann is not fully kosher here, if a player fails to satisfy that single important condition in article 8, a timely acquisition of that naturalized citizenship, no compliance with article 7 will rescue the application to change associations, because article 7 eligibility is bound by the strict terms in article 5 part 2.

An article 7 applicant is uncapped at any level. An article 8 applicant has already been capped and looking for an exemption from the conditions in article 5 part 2
But it's interesting that Yann clearly implies that if naturalisation was the source of the 2nd nationality, the timely fashion of its acquisition is enough to satisfy FIFA and if it was not obtained on time, he says (albeit erroneously) they will have to satisfy the stricter rules in article 7.
In a crucial part he agrees with me , the terms of eligibility in article 8 are separate from articles 5 and 7 and are also less strict.

Why are the terms of article 7 stricter?
They are stricter because they regulate the integrity of the application of uncapped players to play for the country of their new citizenship. Those applicants have to be uncapped at any competitive level, because article 7 first refers to article 5 and the integrity of the change to a new country comes under greater scrutiny due to blatant exploitation of loopholes which challenged integrity.

Article 8 is for players who have already been capped at some level and who are applying to change association, as per their dual nationality.
There is a completely different criteria for them, much less strict.

An Irish citizen who was born to a naturalised Irish citizen outside Ireland, is exactly the type of dual nationality that can avail of article 8 to change associations, as long as he activated that citizenship before being capped at underage level for his country of birth.

[DannyInvincible]

OK, I appreciate what you're saying and thank you for explaining/elaborating. If I'm reading you correctly, that would mean it is possible then that my hypothetical dual French and Irish citizen (by virtue of an honorary citizenship granted by the Irish government when he was 18) would be eligible to play for the FAI after the age of 20 (effectively because he had already represented France competitively at under-age level when he was 20) but wouldn't have been eligible to play for the FAI at the age of 19. That just seems bizarre to me - or contrary to what the eligibility rules are seemingly there to accomplish - but if those are the rules, those are the rules.

Assuming Baba's hypothetical son wouldn't qualify to play for Ireland due to article 7, it would also mean that he would only become eligible to play for the FAI under article 8 if he played for England first (or another country for whom he was eligible) and then opted to switch to the FAI, so long as he held his Irish citizenship at the time he lined out for England. (I know you contend that Baba's son may qualify under article 5, but I'm still not sure why that's a reasonable assumption to make.)

You say Yann's statement, where he outlines that, "failing [satisfaction of the article 8 criteria], article 7 will apply and the player will have to comply with stricter rules", isn't kosher. Perhaps this can be reconciled with your earlier speculation that the "timely acquisition of nationality" clause in article 8 isn't always strictly applied?

Also, one other question/problem with the interpretation you've outlined; if a British national who has been playing for England by virtue of satisfying article 6 wishes to switch to another British association under article 8, how does FIFA determine whether or not that player is eligible to play for the other British association without recourse to article 6? If there is a recourse to article 6, what permits such a recourse? If such a recourse is required by logical necessity, couldn't it be argued that recourse to article 7 is also logically necessitated in instances where a player who has acquired a new nationality wishes to switch association?

[geysir]

OK, I appreciate what you're saying and thank you for explaining. If I'm reading you correctly, that would mean it is possible then that my hypothetical dual French and Irish citizen (by virtue of an honorary citizenship granted by the Irish government when he was 18) would be eligible to play for the FAI at the age of 22 (effectively because he had already represented France) but wouldn't have been eligible to plat for the FAI at the age of 19. That just seems bizarre to me - or contrary to what the rules are seemingly there to accomplish - but if those are the rules, those are the rules.

Honorary citizenship isn't very compelling and that's one reason why FIFA practice individual assessment of each applicant.
There is enough ambiguity in the FIFA statutes to find reason to not be convinced by such an application.
However, the child born to a naturalised citizen has a different merit to his application. It is generally accepted that such applications are individually assessed by FIFA. Imo that´s one good reason for why they allow much of the ambiguity to remain.

Assuming Baba's hypothetical son wouldn't qualify to play for Ireland due to article 7, it would also mean that he would only become eligible to play for the FAI under article 8 if he played for England first (or another country for whom he was eligible) and then opted to switch to the FAI, so long as he held his Irish citizenship at the time he lined out for England. (I know you contend that Baba's son may qualify under article 5, but I'm still not sure why that's a reasonable assumption to make.)

When it comes to genuine immigrants / refugees and their children, as distinct from football mercenaries, then FIFA usually will row in behind the rights of the player and grant the eligibility application or grant the exemption from the rule. FIFA are more concerned with weeding out the mercenary or/and the exploitative element. Strange enough, but this is a dept of FIFA which aims to operates in the interests of the player and integrity of the game.

You say Yann's statement, where he outlines that, "failing [satisfaction of the article 8 criteria], article 7 will apply and the player will have to comply with stricter rules", isn't kosher. Perhaps this can be reconciled with your earlier speculation that the "timely acquisition of nationality" clause in article 8 isn't always strictly applied?

No, I was very much mistaken, it appears that when it comes to a player requesting a transfer of association, FIFA want all the evidence and reasons for change. They want all the details. They want an account of the timeline and evidence to support it.

Also, one other question/problem with the interpretation you've outlined; if a British national who has been playing for England by virtue of satisfying article 6 wishes to switch to another British association under article 8, how does FIFA determine whether or not that player is eligible to play for the other British association without recourse to article 6? If there is a recourse to article 6, what permits such a recourse? If such a recourse is required by logical necessity, couldn't it be argued that recourse to article 7 is also logically necessitated in instances where a player who has acquired a new nationality wishes to switch association?

FIFA doesn't interfere with the criteria contained in article 6 which cover eligibility for the 4 UK associations. That's a zoned off area.
However, if a UK born player wants to play for a 2nd nationality, a country outside the UK, then he proceeds to apply through the normal FIFA channel and is subject to the conditions of the other articles .

[DannyInvincible]

Honorary citizenship isn't very compelling and that's one reason why FIFA practice individual assessment of each applicant.

Honorary citizenship grants the same rights as naturalisation (in Irish law, at least), but upon what set of criteria are these individual assessments based, if not the article 8 criteria? I thought applicants who wished to switch association only had to satisfy a strict application of the article 8 criteria, but if individual assessments are made - the introduction or acknowledgement of the concept of individuality would imply that a strict application of the general rule is not always conducted - and certain types of citizenship aren't deemed to be compelling, then there must be other considerations taken into account, such as the article 7 criteria perhaps?

There is enough ambiguity in the FIFA statutes to find reason to not be convinced by such an application.
However, the child born to a naturalised citizen has a different merit to his application. It is generally accepted that such applications are individually assessed by FIFA. Imo that´s one good reason for why they allow much of the ambiguity to remain.

We're simply discussing the hypothetical example in the context of article 8, which you contend is a completely distinct regulation that does not refer back to the preceding three articles, though. Where exactly is the ambiguity in article 8? Weren't you previously arguing there was no ambiguity in article 8? Your contention has been that possession alone of the citizenship of a second association suffices for a switch to be granted, so long as that citizenship was held at the time the applicant represented his first association. But, if there is ambiguity and there are other considerations (whatever they are), that cannot logically be the case.

FIFA doesn't interfere with the criteria contained in article 6 which cover eligibility for the 4 UK associations. That's a zoned off area.

Why is article 6 a "zoned off area"? To or for whom is it "zoned off"? It doesn't solely deal with eligibility for the four British associations (who do seem to enjoy a greater degree of independence or autonomy compared to other associations), after all; article 6 also governs eligibility for about 20 to 30 other associations. The article is still in FIFA's regulations, at the end of the day, so surely FIFA ultimately have discretion over this domain, if not for the British associations, then at least for the other 20-30 non-British associations to whom this regulation also applies, no?

Are you suggesting that if a player sought to switch from Ireland to the US (eligibility for whom is normally governed by article 6), or from Guam (who also share US nationality) to the US, FIFA wouldn't administer this (beyond confirming that the player satisfied article 8 presumably) and that it would be left up to the US federation (and possibly the Guamanian federation in the latter instance) to deal with it however they wished? Surely FIFA, as a governing body who, you would assume, wish to enforce an objective standard in order ensure and uphold the game's integrity, don't simply leave discretion such matters to the federations concerned. Wouldn't they leave open the possibility of an abuse of standards by federations who are given total discretion to act in their own interest?

Let's take the case of Jack Grealish as an example, in order to make another point/pose another question; he presumably had to lodge a request to switch from the FAI with FIFA. He was a British national at the time he played for Ireland. In real-life, as we know, he sought to switch to England and his switch was granted (by FIFA under article 8, I thought, but maybe not). Are you saying that had he actually sought to switch to Scotland (who also represent British citizenship, of course), that FIFA would hypothetically have permitted such a switch if the SFA (for whatever reason) gave it the green light - so FIFA would confirm satisfaction of article 8 and then leave it up to the British associations, in other words - despite Grealish not satisfying any of the article 6 criteria in respect of Scotland?

However, if a UK born player wants to play for a 2nd nationality, a country outside the UK, then he proceeds to apply through the normal FIFA channel and is subject to the conditions of the other articles .

He wouldn't be subject to article 8? Or are you referring to an uncapped player who is opting to play for an original association?

[gastric]

Lads, should this be debated on the eligibility thread rather than on here? I get excited on the possibility of new players and see amazingly detailed posts I haven't time to read. No offence meant, just saying.

[nigel-harps1954]

I think this thread has slowly turned into 'potentially ineligible players'.

[mark12345]

Lads, should this be debated on the eligibility thread rather than on here? I get excited on the possibility of new players and see amazingly detailed posts I haven't time to read. No offence meant, just saying.

Couldn't agree more. This post has turned into an immigration lawyer's corner.

[geysir]

Indeed, the thread had taken a turn into a whataboutery cul de sac.

[Eminence Grise]

I think this thread has slowly turned into 'potentially ineligible players'.

Unintelligible, more like. Have we really been wading through whether the hypothetical fruit of Noe Baba's loins might be able to play for Ireland? It's gone from surrealism to absurdism.

[johnnyc]

Potentially illegible thread. Dominated by few lads who post daily journals of waffle that nobody in their right mind cares about.

[Charlie Darwin]

Unintelligible, more like. Have we really been wading through whether the hypothetical fruit of Noe Baba's loins might be able to play for Ireland? It's gone from surrealism to absurdism.

When it gets to cubism we should be worried.

[geysir]

We are way post cubism these days.

[geysir]

Afaics, Jack Grealish is still a potentially eligible player.

That's thread relevance, served on a cold dish.

[Fixer82]

Teo is limited but will be in good company (think about it)

That took me a minute. Well played

[BonnieShels]

That took me a minute. Well played

5 days by my count. :P

[DannyInvincible]

We are way post cubism these days.

Hypothetical Baba Dadaism?

[DeLorean]

5 days by my count. :P

The joke doesn't even make sense. The player's name is Tee, not Teo.

P.S. Sorry Stutts.

[tetsujin1979]

Ethan Ampadu on the bench for Chelsea today

[Olé Olé]

Ethan Ampadu on the bench for Chelsea today

I find it so strange that nobody in the FAI picked up the phone to his father. They probably did. But surely if they had done it early Ampadu would be with us- given that he is Irish on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's and it is from his father that he probably gleaned the interest in football.

Maybe they did. Maybe they did it good and early bit the kid fancied Wales from the start and grew up a Ryan Giggs fan or something. Ah well...

[liamoo11]

I find it so strange that nobody in the FAI picked up the phone to his father. They probably did. But surely if they had done it early Ampadu would be with us- given that he is Irish on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's and it is from his father that he probably gleaned the interest in football.

Maybe they did. Maybe they did it good and early bit the kid fancied Wales from the start and grew up a Ryan Giggs fan or something. Ah well...

I'd say it fair to say they absolutely did try look at any under 15 or 16 squad there are always lads in from English sides with no obvious link to Ireland like the new lad in this 16s squad from Arsenal or the Hodge lad from man city. They don't find them without doing lots of work at youth level and they wood have been well aware that ampudu s lad was serious footballer even before he played at 15 for Exeter. He obviously feels Welsh you never know the family circumstances. Sure over on the English section in bigsoccer they are going nuts that he isn't in the English setup. How much earlier can you try and convince him than 15 when he was already a first team player? Really think the fai scouting system in UK gets unfair critisism