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Thread: Hibernian FC and there place in Irish History

  1. #41
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    Thumbs down

    after I just saying I try to read as much as possible I have to admit I did'nt read this thread before posting the message!!!

  2. #42
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    This is bizarre, I have no idea which one of you I am talking to:


    However, to whom it may concern

    Harry Swan took over Hibs in 1934 yet it wasn't until 1956, fully 22 years later that the old 'Harp' entrance was removed.
    22 years is indeed a long time, to harbour some so called anti- Irish grievance

    The real reason for the removal of the Harp emblem was that the stadium and entrance was in a poor state of repair and building,construction costs and a stadium refurbishment programme was implemented to accomodate crowds which on many occasions now consisted of over 50,000 spectators. (Yes really)

    There wasn't a choice in the matter, the 'harp entrances' had to be demolished.
    Instead, an expensive new mosaic Harp was commissioned from a craftsman in Ireland and shipped over to Easter Road where it was hung in the boardroom.

    When Harry Swan died in the early 1960's it was then gifted to his widow.
    Last edited by SlovSam; 20/01/2004 at 10:44 PM.

  3. #43
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    Originally posted by RebelBhoy
    Hibs proposed banning of the tricolour at Parkhead in 1952. Dissappointing from a club with such history.
    Can you clarify without quoting the words of club rag the Celtic 'Its ouropinionandwedon'tcareif tstrue' View?

    More madey up pish. Some clues, what position did Mr Swan actually hold when the 'Tricolour banning' was happening? Who advocated the calming down of the intolerant misbehaviour of the 'Best Fans in the world' in 1951 prior to the flag debate being raised (scuse punnery), was the flag flown on the east or west stand/ terrace of Celtic Park, who owned Hibernian when Mr Swan joined the club, what actually happened to the Harp above the entrance, what colour do my club play in, what name do they have and have done so for 128 years, what goal netting was introduced on Mr Swans appointment, who played for Hibs during Mr Swan's tenureship that may just dispel the Imbittered Celtic myth of his 'anti - Irish or anti catholic' stance.

    FFS, what colour was his effin toothbrush??

    Realise......you are being lied to by your club, its historians and those pathetic journalistic wannabies at the Celtic Pish Paper.

    Ye really couldnae make it up.
    Our demands most moderate are –
    We only want the earth!

  4. #44
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    The same discussion is going on the e-Tims website (mentioning this thread) I apologised again for bringing it up. In response to the last comment, which I repeated on the other website too, my understanding of it was that the tricolour issue was not brought about by Swan, but by George Graham the then head of the SFA?

    As for the view….I don’t buy it. I used to, but as you will know, does tend to report the truth as the board see it rather than as the fans see it
    "It is not to those who can inflict most, but to those who can endure most, that the victory is certain"

  5. #45
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    Some more background which I have also posted on my home site of the Hibees bounce

    http://www.hibeesbounce.com/forum/sh...8646#post98646


    I actually don't have to much of a problem with this 'Celtic version' of history as written by Tom Campbell.

    I would agree, that there was a huge over-reaction by the SFA to the Glasgow magistrates' four recommendations that:

    (1) Rangers and Celtic should not play each other on New Years Day .
    (2) All ticket games only.
    (3) Numbered passgeways at Celtic Park
    (4) That the two clubs should avoid displaying flags which might incite feeling among the spectators. ie specifically Celtic and there Irish flag.

    Number (4) is obviously the point of contention.

    Reading the article and you find that Mr Tom Campbell claims that:

    (1)George Graham the secretary of the SFA led and orchestrated the campaign against Celtic and Harry Swan of Hibs was only a nominal participant. (not sure what nominal means)

    (2) George Graham mislead the SFA council by turning down a meeting with the Scottish League and that Harry Swan was embarrassed at his superiors misleading behaviour. (Sounds fine to me)

    (3) Harry Swan chaired a meeting that asked Celtic to comply with the 'flag recommendations'
    (This actually was due to the supposed illness of George Graham and Harry Swan was duty bound to chair the meeting in his capacity of Acting President).


    My problem is that, it is then a huge leap in logic and imagination to then assume that Harry Swan becomes demonised as being anti Irish, anti Celtic/ anti catholic/ anti colour of the grass

    Spin, Spin and more spin where is that Alistair Campbell when you most need him
    Last edited by SlovSam; 21/01/2004 at 1:14 PM.

  6. #46
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    We usually say that it can't be paranoia if they really are out to get you, but in this instance I think it really is a bit of paranoia.

    I think you are right to suggest that it was Graham who lost out as a result of the incident (leaving his post with the SFA shortly afterwards???).

    Did Tom Campell not go on to say that iit was Swan who took the decision to give Celtic 3 days to comply with the order to remove the tricolour? also that he was backed into a position where he had to sell Graham down the river for approaching the Scottish league???

    Were Hibs a victim of a siimilar sort of thing way way way back?
    "It is not to those who can inflict most, but to those who can endure most, that the victory is certain"

  7. #47
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    Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy

    Were Hibs a victim of a siimilar sort of thing way way way back?
    Hibs after winning the second division in 1894 were prevented from promotion to the first division because they flew the Green Flag. Celtic were one of the clubs that voted against their promotion.

  8. #48
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    Thats a pretty loaded sentence. I'd very much doubt that Hibernian flying the Green flag was the reason Celtic voted against Hibs promotion.
    "It is not to those who can inflict most, but to those who can endure most, that the victory is certain"

  9. #49
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    Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
    Thats a pretty loaded sentence. I'd very much doubt that Hibernian flying the Green flag was the reason Celtic voted against Hibs promotion.
    It wouldn't have been in Celtic's interest to have another club with Irish connections in the first division competing for the support of the Irish in Scotland.

  10. #50
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    aaah, your'e playing Dick Advocaat now (Devils Advocate). Thats a very speculative reasoning at best. I have looked around on google and not seen much about it but surely just as good a reason would be that the team who got promoted in Hibs place (Clyde) are closer to Glasgow?
    In any case, were the gates shared back then, so a strong Hibs would have meant better gate receipts all round???
    "It is not to those who can inflict most, but to those who can endure most, that the victory is certain"

  11. #51
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    Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
    It wouldn't have been in Celtic's interest to have another club with Irish connections in the first division competing for the support of the Irish in Scotland.
    That was the reason, thats also the reason Celtic bad-mouth Hibs and their history (ie make up stories and accusations) whenever possible.

    I remember seeing an interview with Willie Maley written in the early 20's, he said that "without the grand old Hibernian their would be no Celtic" - a pity Celtic see fit to ignore those words these days, The Celtic View article is a disgrace.

  12. #52
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    Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
    Hibs after winning the second division in 1894 were prevented from promotion to the first division because they flew the Green Flag. Celtic were one of the clubs that voted against their promotion.



    We never seem to hear this from our Celtic friends do we
    They came from Little Ireland,
    in Scotlands capital,
    and took the name Hibernian,
    the most Irish name of all.

  13. #53
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    My take on the events of 1894 is that Hibs had only been reformed for one year when they won the second division championship and barring them from the first division was mostly discriminatory though maybe and its a big maybe, perhaps the Scottish League were concerned Hibs would go out of business again and be unable to fulfill there fixtures.

    It wouldn't really be in Celtic's interests to have Hibs in the same division, as at that time, a large number of Hibs fans still came from the West of Scotland, as they had supported Hibs years before Celtic existed.

    Despite what Willie Maley said, I don't really buy into the 'without 'Hibs there wouldn't have been a Celtic argument'.
    Throughout Britain and Europe in the 1880's, football was expanding at an exponential rate ,hence it's inconceivable that the huge Irish population of the West of Scotland wouldn't want a team to call their own.

    Hibs certainly were the pioneers and broke down a lot of the sectarian barriers but Celtic were on the planning table from the minute the English Public Schools codified the rules of Association Football.

    I've always wondered how they chose the name and was it ever pronounced Keltic
    Last edited by SlovSam; 21/01/2004 at 6:52 PM.

  14. #54
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    Originally posted by SlovSam
    My take on the events of 1894 is that Hibs had only been reformed for one year when they won the second division championship and barring them from the first division was mostly discriminatory though maybe and its a big maybe, perhaps the Scottish League were concerned Hibs would go out of business again and be unable to fulfill there fixtures.

    It wouldn't really be in Celtic's interests to have Hibs in the same division, as at that time, a large number of Hibs fans still came from the West of Scotland, as they had supported Hibs years before Celtic existed.

    Despite what Willie Maley said, I don't really buy into the 'without 'Hibs there wouldn't have been a Celtic argument'.
    Throughout Britain and Europe in the 1880's, football was expanding at an exponential rate ,hence it's inconceivable that the huge Irish population of the West of Scotland wouldn't want a team to call their own.

    Hibs certainly were the pioneers and broke down a lot of the sectarian barriers but Celtic were on the planning table from the minute the English Public Schools codified the rules of Association Football.

    I've always wondered how they chose the name and was it ever pronounced Keltic



    I disagree Slov, if there was no Hibernian there defo would be no Glasgow Celtic, instead they would have taken the name Glasgow HIBERNIAN
    They came from Little Ireland,
    in Scotlands capital,
    and took the name Hibernian,
    the most Irish name of all.

  15. #55
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    I think there actually was a Glasgow Hibernian, not really my area of expertise but I think what happened is that Brother Walfrid and the Church left Celtic as they didn't like the ethos of John Glass, the businessmen and a limited liability company.

    They then decided to set up another club called Glasgow Hibernians which would be non profit making, possibly strictly religious and amateur.

    They folded after a year or two which is just as well , imagine the confusion today Hibernian v Hibernian

  16. #56
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    Slov have read the artical from the Celtic veiw yet?


    It says the SFA Referee Committee 'seized' upon the recommendations of the Glasgow magistrate.

    But what it doesn't say is that thier very own Bob Kelly was the Chairman of the Referee's Committee

    It also says that and I quote..... 'it was Swan, in becoming Chairman of Hibs, who had attempted to eradicate all Irish refrences and links to the Edinburgh club, this included removing of the Harp which adorned the main entrance to Easter Rd.'

    What it doesn't say is that Swan had been Hibernian Chairman for 22 years before the Harp was knocked down due to essential maintainace at Easter Rd.

    'Eradicate all Irish refrences' whats that all about? we still had our Irish colours, name and the Harp was hung in the boardroom!

    What a load of rubbish, Celtic rubbish and this being from what is an official source connected to the club
    They came from Little Ireland,
    in Scotlands capital,
    and took the name Hibernian,
    the most Irish name of all.

  17. #57
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    Yes I read it thanks, what a load of baloney.

    Harry Swan first involvement with Hibs was as a debenture holder for the old main stand in 1924 when the club was still a 'closed Irish shop'.
    Hence even 30 years prior to the 'Harp removal'.

    He was 'welcomed with open arms' by the old Irish families', maintained links with the old guard throughout his life, changed the nets to green',was great friends with the Monsignor as previously pointed out and recomissioned a 'Harp emblem' for the boardroom.

    It really is the worst case of Celtic Paranoia

    They feel rightly slighted as they were asked to take down there flag, Harry Swan was indeed a freemason, so then it snowballs into Harry Swan the anti irish bigot, who founded Protestant Action and who ruthlessly dissolved all remnants of Hibs Irish roots

    A 'Celtic mind' is a very difficult one to get inside...not that I would want to

    PS Is that you on the E-Tims web site defending our cause, if so direct that idiot who thinks that Harry Swan founded Protestant Action as well over here to be educated
    Last edited by SlovSam; 21/01/2004 at 9:55 PM.

  18. #58
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    Like I say, I don’t put too much credence in the view. It tends to put out the official party line that not too many Tims adhere to. They are trying to make our club a green extension of the tartan army which, lets face it is not really possible when you are faced with trips to Swinecastle and Castle Greyshkull twice a season.

    As for the pronunciation of (k)Celtic, I have heard a new story recently but as usual, I have forgotten it. I always thought that the pronunciation was down to the fact that the original minutes of the formation of the club were printed in the press so those that read it that were unfamiliar with the word pronounced it as it is today and as word spread it just stuck like that.

    Seeing as I got the whole thing wrong in the first place, does anyone know anything about Dundee Hibernian?? I know that Dundee Utd’s away kit the year before last was green in honour of their former name. I was always of the impression that there were many clubs throughout Scotland with an Irish reference in their title, but due to the anti-Irish feeling in Scotland the SFA basically ran them out of business, or forced them to change their names (much like our PLC are doing with our supporters clubs). That was my impression but I have known to be wrong before…but surely not twice!
    "It is not to those who can inflict most, but to those who can endure most, that the victory is certain"

  19. #59
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    I'm not quite sure when Dundee Hibernian were formed but I do know it was based on the Hibs model and that Hibs went to play them in a friendly, helped with strips, organisation and the like just as they had done with Celtic.

    Aren't we such a nice philanthropic lot .


    I'm afraid I've never seen any evidence that the SFA tried to make any club change it's name, Hibernian means 'Irishmen' or men of 'Ireland' and to my knowledge the SFA never tried to force Hibs to change there name.

    Scottish society was pretty sectarian and bigoted in these days(arguably up to WW11 and well into 50's) but all the clubs named Hibernian or Harp just seem to assimilate into society.
    I've not seen any claims that the SFA or the Scottish Leauge exerted any pressure.
    Possibly this happenned at local, amateur and junior level though.

    I've read 'Across the great divide' which charts the history of Dundee and Dundee United and nowhere does it claim the SFA or anyone else asked them to change the name to 'Dundee United' from 'Dundee Hibernians'
    The club changed the name of it's own accord I think in the 1930's, as they wanted to broaden there appeal as they were a second division club who played to a few hundred people each week. (a bit like now)

    Tell you what, you keep 'providing the myths' and we will keep on unpicking them

    What is happening with the names of Celtic supporters club?
    I've always thought they were very interesting eg John F Kennedy, James Stokes (Victoria Cross medal winner) etc etc.
    Are the PLC witholding tickets if they don't approve?
    Last edited by SlovSam; 22/01/2004 at 12:41 PM.

  20. #60
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    Talking

    Sure thing. Myth No 1: Commentators have the correct pronunciation when they refer to Hibernians' Derek REEOR-DAN!!

    I've just been looking on the E-Tims website and the thread has kinda degenerated a bit into name calling and "we're better than you because ...." I was a bit disturbed by the claims that Celtic are a Unionist club by seeking a move to the EPL. THats not really fair, Capitalist maybe, but Unionist....not really. I am not sure what worries me more!!! It got me thinking that its a bit sillly really as we are both denying each other a shared history that other clubs can only aspire to. Clubs founded with ideals that maybe we both have moved away from.
    Hibs have an Irish name, badge and motto and are the first to wear the Green and were the favoured club of James Connolly and were founded as a direct result of racism in Edinburgh and have managed to sucessfully integrate in Scottish society. NET RESULT: A SCOTTISH FOOTBALL CLUB PROUD OF ITS IRISH HERITAGE.
    Celtic, a club founded on the Hibs model as a charitable, non-sectarian football club, the favoured club of Michael Davitt who fly the tricolour as donated by the Irish Government. NET RESULT: A SCOTTISH FOOTBALL CLUB PROUD OF ITS IRISH ROOTS.

    I don't know what got into me in the first place to make a row out of it?! I'm pretty sure that both of us have larger obstacles to face than each other like the continued racism and sectarianism that we both encounter.

    I looked on the Dundee Utd Website and they stated that the change in name was "In order to attract wider appeal, the club decided to drop the reference to Hibernian from their title". I would read a lot into that statement about anti Irish attitudes in Scotland and how compromising ones history can completely change the direction of an organisation.
    "It is not to those who can inflict most, but to those who can endure most, that the victory is certain"

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