Commission into Child Abuse report

**pete** · 20/05/2009, 4:02 PM

Sexual abuse was "endemic" in State-run institutions for boys and children lived in "daily terror" of being beaten over more than five decades, the long-awaited Commission into Child Abuse report has found.

The report, that runs to thousands of pages, outlined a harrowing account of the emotional, physical and sexual abuse inflicted on young people who attended schools and institutions from 1940 onwards.

Where the Department of Education was concerned the Commission found that its "deferential and submissive attitude" towards the religious congregations "compromised its ability to carry out its statutory duty of inspections and monitoring of the schools."

He also said all parties had co-operated with the commission in its investigation and singled out in particular among the religious congregations, the Rosminians for praise who operated industrial schools at Upton in Cork and Ferryhouse in Tipperary.

He said the Rosminian congregation accepted responsibility for the abuse in their institutions but they did not stop at that point. Their attitude was to seek to understand the abuse whereas other congregations tried to explain it.

I wonder has anything been learnt from the past? Will similar neglect occur in the future? Seems a quiet good case for separation between church & state.

**Macy** · 21/05/2009, 7:35 AM

Originally Posted by pete

I wonder has anything been learnt from the past? Will similar neglect occur in the future? Seems a quiet good case for separation between church & state.

It has a direct link to the Catholic Primary Schools debate. In Catholic Schools, the state pays and the church has control. The recent case in the supreme court where a abuse victim was trying to get the state to take responsibility for the abuse she suffered at the hands of a primary school teacher was actually fought and won by the state on the basis that it was the Board of Managements responsibility. In 98% of schools the Board is appointed by the church.

There's actually a case in the report that highlights a Principle in the midlands who was moved around schools when abuse was reported, in much the same way as priests were. A more thorough investigation into day schools would uncover more I'm sure, as it seems not many victims were aware it included day schools in the remit of the inquiry.

So to answer has anything be learnt from the past? In the social care aspect maybe. In the abdication of responsibility and power to the church when it comes to children? No.

**Shilts** · 21/05/2009, 9:32 AM

Some of the reports that are coming out are unbelievable.

I feel for the children that have been ignored by the governments elected to protect them.

We have to grow up as a country and separate all schools and hospitals from religious orders. As a country we need to take responsibility for our children and not say 'the church will look after that' - which it obviously has not been doing.

No 'Irish solution to an Irish problem' bullsh1t this time. We need to grab the nettle and sort this out once and for all.

Full separation between church and state, especially in the areas of education and healthcare!!! This is needed NOW!!!

**pete** · 21/05/2009, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by Shilts

We have to grow up as a country and separate all schools and hospitals from religious orders. As a country we need to take responsibility for our children and not say 'the church will look after that' - which it obviously has not been doing.

That can't be done overnight but it is the only way forward. Will be interesting to see the political response as I don't see the government acting in that way.

**Mr A** · 22/05/2009, 11:43 AM

Cowen says there is no legal way to look at the deal with the congregations:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...breaking28.htm

It's actually incredible just how pathetic Fianna Fail really are.

**MariborKev** · 22/05/2009, 11:46 AM

Anyone got a link to the 2004 judgement where the CB won their case to keep their members unnamed?

**pete** · 22/05/2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mr A

It's actually incredible just how pathetic Fianna Fail really are.

Chalk it down for Berties legacy.

The state should have taken ownership of school property in lieu of cash.

**hoops1** · 22/05/2009, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

Full separation between church and state, especially in the areas of education and healthcare!!! This is needed NOW!!!

Whatever about the schools when the nuns were running the hospitals they weren't half the shambles they are now.

**John83** · 22/05/2009, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by hoops1

Whatever about the schools when the nuns were running the hospitals they weren't half the shambles they are now.

They ran the nurses ragged keeping the place clean. The current method, involving a contract cleaner dragging a fetid mop through the toilet, operating theatre and cafeteria, is inferior, but there are good reasons not to have nurses cleaning the place.

**Shilts** · 22/05/2009, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by hoops1

Whatever about the schools when the nuns were running the hospitals they weren't half the shambles they are now.

Religious orders should not be running our hospitals. Full stop.
There has been cases where women's cancer treatment has been influenced by 'RC ethos', ie. the treatment that did not require the woman to go on the pill was the one selected.

And its no use saying its all lay people now - they're picked by the nuns and priests and have a big 'Catholic chip' on their sholders'!!

We the people should have 100% control of the schools and hospitals - where our tax money is spent.

If religious orders want to set up their own schools and hospitals and pay for them 100% themselves (including staff salaries), then let them off!!!

Let's grow up and take responsibility ourselves!!!

**pete** · 22/05/2009, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

We the people should have 100% control of the schools and hospitals - where our tax money is spent.

Its like the state subsidies these institutions so they can continue to spread their ethos.

Can't move to state run schools overnight but taking control in lieu of compensation money would have been a good start as I suggested above.

**Shilts** · 22/05/2009, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Its like the state subsidies these institutions so they can continue to spread their ethos.

Can't move to state run schools overnight but taking control in lieu of compensation money would have been a good start as I suggested above.

100% agree - can I vote for you pete?

**pete** · 22/05/2009, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

100% agree - can I vote for you pete?

Are you in my constituency?

**John83** · 23/05/2009, 2:03 PM

Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. Please tell me that's a prank. Or a photoshop.

**Yard of Pace** · 24/05/2009, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by John83

Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. Please tell me that's a prank. Or a photoshop.

It's a prank, don't worry! Few of them around here.

**Macy** · 25/05/2009, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by hoops1

Whatever about the schools when the nuns were running the hospitals they weren't half the shambles they are now.

Yeah, the Neary case in Drogheda is a great example of how great religious controlled hospitals were. Many of them are still effectively controlled by the church and have their "ethos" instilled - such as in Maternity cases where it's the mother or the child they'll automatically pick the child rather than the mothers health. The Mater in the last few years stopped trials of cancer drugs because they required the use of the pill as part of the treatment, and there's been cases of consultants being stopped carrying out certain operations in other Catholic ethos hospitals. The continued downgrading of Tallaght (traditionally with a protestant (and in this case more progressive) ethos) whilst focussing services on Catholic hospitals is a further example of the power the church has in healthcare.

Cleanliness issues are more the result of driving down costs in the belief that cleaning in a medical environment is an unskilled occupation when it isn't.