Minister to announce measures on gangland crime

**Ringo** · 17/04/2009, 6:33 AM

Friday April 17 2009

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern is set to announce new measures today aimed at cracking down on gangland crime.

The proposals follow talks between the minister and the Garda Commissioner following the murder of 35-year-old Roy Collins in Limerick last week.

Reports this morning say Mr Ahern's plans to introduce a new offence of gang membership.

People accused of the offence will automatically appear before the non-jury Special Criminal Court, unless the DPP directs otherwise.

The minister is also reportedly planning to publish legislation paving the way for covert bugging operations to target gangland criminals.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...e-1711857.html

I normally don't agree with kneejerk law making, but the situation has got completely out of hand.

**Macy** · 17/04/2009, 8:14 AM

Well, I'm not really sure it'd kneejerk - they've been promising this for feckin years, and this current one was what Lenihan was about to publish when he was moved. I'd like to see when it's actually going to come into force, as they're very fond of multiple press releases without actually putting it into law.

And btw, a big

for introducing it in a press conference during easter recess rather than in the Dail where it should be.

**dahamsta** · 17/04/2009, 9:33 AM

Sounds like a stupid law to me. How do you define a "gang"? I was a member of a "gang" that got up to naughtiness when I was a youngfella, are they going to prosecute me?

**pete** · 17/04/2009, 9:45 AM

Don't they say bad crimes make for bad laws?

I don't live in Limerick so can't say how bad it really is but is this an admission by the gardai & public prosecutors that they cannot win? Far from me to defend thugs but would it not be better to convict them of an actual crime like murder?

**Lionel Ritchie** · 17/04/2009, 11:40 AM

Well, I do live in Limerick and can say the situation affects me about as much as it does yourself Pete ...but then again neither of us nor dahamsta nor anyone else here have likely crossed the paths of these gob****es.

The gardai and prosecution services are probably admitting that they can't win because there were already many examples of people who retracted statements and refused to give evidence on the basis they were being intimidated ...and that long before this man was murdered because a relative did supply evidence that secured a conviction.

I'd go much further than this legislation. I think this a situation where the much tabloid-tipped Internment would actually do the trick. **** 'em ...lock 'em up. I know that's going to bring out someone calling my attitude right-wing reactionary and quoting "then they came for the celebrity illusionists but I wasn't a celebrity illusionist so I did nothing" but how bad. I strongly suspect it'd work a treat.

**Macy** · 17/04/2009, 1:01 PM

I heard him interviewed on Newstalk over lunch - this is purely about allowing surveillence. His department is still considering wider changes about gang membership and directing criminal activity. So again, as ever with this crowd, nothing like as far as the pre-launch leak would suggest.

**Sheridan** · 17/04/2009, 1:03 PM

The problem with that, LR, is that you'd be handing powers of internment to the most incompetent and politicised police force in Europe. They can and do use their current powers for political and corrupt purposes, I hardly think extending them is in the interest of society in the long term.

**anto1208** · 17/04/2009, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Don't they say bad crimes make for bad laws?

I don't live in Limerick so can't say how bad it really is but is this an admission by the gardai & public prosecutors that they cannot win? Far from me to defend thugs but would it not be better to convict them of an actual crime like murder?

But thats the problem at the moment how do you convict someone who is all ready in jail, of a murder when he was no where near the incident ?

Everyone know who ordered the hit on Roy collins there is no point locking up this nomark for pulling the trigger because there is an endless stream of these 16-25 years olds willing to go out and murder innocent people.

Where as a law like being a member of a gang will lead to an easy conviction for the head guys in these gangs.

**Lionel Ritchie** · 17/04/2009, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Sheridan

The problem with that, LR, is that you'd be handing powers of internment to the most incompetent and politicised police force in Europe. They can and do use their current powers for political and corrupt purposes, I hardly think extending them is in the interest of society in the long term.

Fair comment -though I'd hardly say the most politicised ...but I take the point that they are likely entirely corruptable.

But I still think the measure could work ...this isn't some political organisation who'll turn it into a torch of their victimhood. Nobody but the immediate relatives (and not all of them by any means) and assocciates of these ****ers will care less to see them lifted. Either way we need to get down and dirty with these guys.

**eamo1** · 17/04/2009, 1:35 PM

Covert operations ARE needed though.I know gang members are ultra paranoid though and change phones every week etc but its good.At the very least it slows up what they might be planning as they have to be extra carefull and thus gives Gardai more time.I just hope its not as obvious as The Simpsons when they were being bugged and a "F"lowers "B"y "I"rene truck was parked outside

.If theres someone in those estates in Limerick going around giving out "free smoke alarms" in the next few weeks then that might not work either.

**Macy** · 17/04/2009, 1:39 PM

But they already do the surveillance, it's making it admissable in court which he's bringing in.

**osarusan** · 17/04/2009, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by anto1208

Everyone know who ordered the hit on Roy collins there is no point locking up this nomark for pulling the trigger because there is an endless stream of these 16-25 years olds willing to go out and murder innocent people.

Where as a law like being a member of a gang will lead to an easy conviction for the head guys in these gangs.

This the key point, and the very reason for the new measures, imo.

If you have a gang where the heads of the gang are getting footsoldiers to do their work for them (drug deals, murders, threats, whatever), I imagine it is difficult to get a conviction of one of the heads, because they are directing, rather than doing. But if being a member of a gang is in itself a crime, it should be easier to get a prosecution.

The question of how a gang is defined, and how a person can be proven to be a gang member, would be the crucial point.

**Shilts** · 17/04/2009, 2:10 PM

Remember what the Brits did in Gibaralter?
They took no prisoners.

Cowen should sanction the assasination of gang members who are at war with the peaceful operation of the state. Get the Army Rangers onboard. Rival gangs could always be blamed if the dogooders are causing a fuss.

Just tail them until they are all together at a meeting and take them out gang by gang. Its the only thing that will sort out the problem once and for all.

**pete** · 17/04/2009, 2:27 PM

Is this our very own Patriot Act?

**Shilts** · 17/04/2009, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Is this our very own Patriot Act?

Or we could sit down and have a cup of tea with them and ask politely if they would be good boys from now on - maybe that would work.

**Macy** · 17/04/2009, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

Or we could sit down and have a cup of tea with them and ask politely if they would be good boys from now on - maybe that would work.

I think Willie O'Dea already tried that.

**Sheridan** · 17/04/2009, 3:04 PM

I presume Willie will be leading Strike Team A into Moyross himself, cigar in mouth, waving his Glock around.

**shantykelly** · 17/04/2009, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

Remember what the Brits did in Gibaralter?
They took no prisoners.

Cowen should sanction the assasination of gang members who are at war with the peaceful operation of the state. Get the Army Rangers onboard. Rival gangs could always be blamed if the dogooders are causing a fuss.

Just tail them until they are all together at a meeting and take them out gang by gang. Its the only thing that will sort out the problem once and for all.

im trying to work out whether you're being serious or taking the ****. hopefully the latter.

**L37Ultra** · 17/04/2009, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Don't they say bad crimes make for bad laws?

I don't live in Limerick so can't say how bad it really is but is this an admission by the gardai & public prosecutors that they cannot win? Far from me to defend thugs but would it not be better to convict them of an actual crime like murder?

Why pick Limerick? Dublin is worse and I bet you are just as affected as gangland crime in Dublin as I am in Limerick. A lot of things have happened close by to where I live in the last few years but to be honest it doesn't have an affected on my daily life.

Of course its better to convict the "gang" members before they commit an actual murder. People are afraid to be witnesses for murder trials now after what happened to Roy Collins.

There are main men in these gangs ordering murders. They get youngfellas to do the dirty work as they have them addicted to drugs which they sell. Therefore, its the young lads commiting these murders who get caught and the gang leaders often get away with it. Thats why these new laws are good because the garda can convict the gang leaders who ordered these murders and also convicting the young lads who are actually pulling the trigger.

**pete** · 17/04/2009, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by L37Ultra

Why pick Limerick? Dublin is worse and I bet you are just as affected as gangland crime in Dublin as I am in Limerick. A lot of things have happened close by to where I live in the last few years but to be honest it doesn't have an affected on my daily life.

I don't keep count but plenty of murders within probably a mile of my home. As you say it doesn't affect me. I suppose none of us really care when criminals are killing each other but then you have acses where people caught in the crossfire, killed due to mistaken identify & now killed for what was said.

Surely the Gardai already have surveillance powers? Can't listen in on phone conversations?