Labour can kill off Coke and Pepsi politics

[Ringo]

Fine Gael rules out coalition with Greens

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/f...ns-411171.html

Adams: FG vote won't bring change

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/a...ge-411172.html


So much for democracy. Were going to left with very little choice come the next election.

[OneRedArmy]

Better now than after the election, like the lying bags of crap in the Greens.

I wouldn't be so harsh Adam.

Sure, they got played like fools like every FF partner, but I'd put that down more to absolute naivety rather than any Machavellian planning (possibly Gormley aside).

They looked like rabbits in the headlights for the first 12 months but in the last 6 months they have realised they neither can nor probably want to influence the wider programme for Government and have gone back to concentrating on traditional, narrow Green policies.

I wish they'd done this from the start.

I realise you disagree, but I believe the Greens deserve a small amount of slack for getting the hospital pass of all hospital passes (Bertie's legacy) and for this being the first time they've been near anything resembling Government. I wouldn't be lumping them in with the PDs yet.

[mypost]

Unless they pull out of government, they'll go the same way as the PD's.

[dahamsta]

I won't be cutting the Greens any slack ORA. They always featured on my ballot card based on their policies; if you take those policies away, as they themselves have done, there's nothing left. The reasons why are none of my concern, but I will say that in my opinion naivete is neither valid, nor (entirely) accurate. Eamon Ryan's behaviour in Government being a perfect example: I can't account for his naivete, but I do know for a fact that he's a bare-faced liar.

Gormley's probably naive though. Probably not the best character flaw for a party leader. I look forward to the return of Clever Trevor; assuming the Greens last long enough for it of course. He might be able to win me back as a voter.

adam

[OneRedArmy]

Unless they pull out of government, they'll go the same way as the PD's.

Disagree. As long as there is a green agenda (thats green with a small "g"), then they'll be around. If that disappears, they will disappear, but I don't see that happening.

I won't be cutting the Greens any slack ORA. They always featured on my ballot card based on their policies; if you take those policies away, as they themselves have done, there's nothing left. The reasons why are none of my concern, but I will say that in my opinion naivete is neither valid, nor (entirely) accurate. Eamon Ryan's behaviour in Government being a perfect example: I can't account for his naivete, but I do know for a fact that he's a bare-faced liar.

Gormley's probably naive though. Probably not the best character flaw for a party leader. I look forward to the return of Clever Trevor; assuming the Greens last long enough for it of course. He might be able to win me back as a voter.

adam

Trevor was obviously unwilling to dilute his principles, but then we go straight back into the "compromise and try and be as effective as you can as a minority partner" versus "perpetual opposition party".

You only learn through your mistakes and whats important for the Greens(as opposed to whats important for the country) is that they learn from theirs.

Todays poll is the first sign that they are getting punished by the electorate, the Council elections will be interesting. Maintaining a green agenda when people are struggling to find work and make ends meet is a tough sell even ignoring that the FF association.

[Poor Student]

Unless they pull out of government, they'll go the same way as the PD's.

Green political parties are still a relatively new force in Western European politics and with climate issues becoming more of a focus I think the policies they concetrate on will be increasingly relevant in the near term and they'll continue to exists.

[dahamsta]

Trevor was obviously unwilling to dilute his principles, but then we go straight back into the "compromise and try and be as effective as you can as a minority partner" versus "perpetual opposition party".

I agree with you that compromise is the essence of politics, which sadly many people don't understand. But don't forget that Sargent did compromise, by taking a junior seat at the table. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't call myself a fan of Sargent by any stretch of the imagination*, and I abhor the grandfathered junior ministries. But I'd have a hell of a lot more time for him than any current mainline Green. Gormley and Ryan are the worst though, utter lying pond scum. Boyle is a different type of scum. They've all done a huge disservice to their party.

adam


* Which isn't to say I'd rule that out for the future. Although the day when I ever become a fan of an Irish politician is hard to see. Sadly, the only ones I ever really cheer for are from other countries. (Mo Mowlam, Charles Kennedy, and perhaps Obama.) I think the best I could do for an Irish politician is a slight nod of respect, and then only for about a half a dozen of them.

[Macy]

I realise you disagree, but I believe the Greens deserve a small amount of slack for getting the hospital pass of all hospital passes (Bertie's legacy) and for this being the first time they've been near anything resembling Government. I wouldn't be lumping them in with the PDs yet.

They weren't needed for the numbers to stack up, and that's why they've got so little policy comprimise. They will probably pay the electoral price, whereas if they'd hung it out they'd be in a Rainbow Government (possibly by now anyway), with more sway after benefitting from the ABFF vote.

The Ministerial Pensions are nearly in the bag, hence the start of the exit strategy. They're not even principled when it comes to trying to pull the whole thing down...

[pete]

The Greens in recent days were saying the programme for Government would be renegotiated but Cowan has firmly said that won't happen now.

Irish Times

THE GREEN Party has moved to play down the prospect of a split with its Fianna Fáil coalition partners over a Green demand to review the programme for government.

“We are not seeking a way out of government,” Minister for Communications Energy and Natural Resources, Eamon Ryan told The Irish Times.

“We are two years in Government and we are looking to see what we have done and what we do now,” he added.

Stressing that the Greens were not preparing an exit strategy, he said: “We are looking for ways of making Government work better”.

The Minister’s comments came after a weekend of intense speculation about the coalition’s future, sparked off by Senator Dan Boyle, who had described various aspects of Government policy generally associated with Fianna Fáil as “a disaster”.

Like any junior partner in government the Greens need a good excuse if they are to bring down the government. Electorates are very unforgiving of unecessary elections. The worse the Greens do in the elections the better it is for FF as the Greens will be less likely to want to call an election from such a low state.

[reder]

Like any junior partner in government the Greens need a good excuse if they are to bring down the government. Electorates are very unforgiving of unecessary elections. The worse the Greens do in the elections the better it is for FF as the Greens will be less likely to want to call an election from such a low state.

Agree with this. If the greens were to pull out of government, they would effectively be signing their own death warrant. They would be slaughtered at the polls and whilst the likes of FF can absorb a beating, they would be set back years in terms of party popularity growth.

Im quite relieved that I will be out in Sofia for the upcoming elections, as I take voting seriously and put a fair bit of thought into my decision. I dont know what way to vote. I can knock off the likes of SF straight away because I would never vote for them but its hard to decide otherwise.

[mypost]

By pulling out, they would send a signal to the electorate, that they don't have to blindly follow FF decisions if they're bad for the country. If they sit there for the next 3 years, they will be seen as the tail wagging the dog, and suffer the consequences.

[OneRedArmy]

The Greens in recent days were saying the programme for Government would be renegotiated but Cowan has firmly said that won't happen now.

Irish Times



Like any junior partner in government the Greens need a good excuse if they are to bring down the government. Electorates are very unforgiving of unecessary elections. The worse the Greens do in the elections the better it is for FF as the Greens will be less likely to want to call an election from such a low state.

The quote I heard from BIFFO said that it was a logical request for the Greens to make two years into the Government and in the middle of an election campaign. He didn't rule it out completely, but gave no indication that he would do anything about it.

The Greens should've done it at the time of the Supplementary Budget, as that was a more logical time to suggest a review.

[Macy]

Agree with this. If the greens were to pull out of government, they would effectively be signing their own death warrant. They would be slaughtered at the polls and whilst the likes of FF can absorb a beating, they would be set back years in terms of party popularity growth.

They're well into damned if they do, damned if they don't country at this stage. They'd be better pulling it down if they can come up with an issue that'd justify them making a stand (if opinion polls and the forthcoming elections aren't enough justification in themselves). If they don't, independents and FF back benchers could well do it for them, and then they'd be really fecked!

[Bald Student]

I won't be cutting the Greens any slack ORA. They always featured on my ballot card based on their policies; if you take those policies away, as they themselves have done, there's nothing left. The reasons why are none of my concern, but I will say that in my opinion naivete is neither valid, nor (entirely) accurate. Eamon Ryan's behaviour in Government being a perfect example: I can't account for his naivete, but I do know for a fact that he's a bare-faced liar.

Gormley's probably naive though. Probably not the best character flaw for a party leader. I look forward to the return of Clever Trevor; assuming the Greens last long enough for it of course. He might be able to win me back as a voter.

adam

I don't agree Adam because I put much less weight onto the policies a party has in opposition. Policies in opposition are only words on a sheet of paper, policies in government consist of real things being done. And, in my calculations, it takes an awful lot of paper to measure up against actual stuff.

For example, I'm pretty sure that if the greens weren't in government one or both of the new train tunnels in Dublin would have been cancelled by now. I'll happily take a new train tunnel over over 100 diagrams of train tunnels published in opposition policy documents.

[OneRedArmy]

FF have agreed to review the Programme for Government. Time will tell if anything material changes.

[dahamsta]

Policies in opposition are only words on a sheet of paper

Politics in opposition is about pushing for the compromise mentioned earlier. Someone in opposition learned a long time ago that if you exaggerate your cause you can get the compromise closer to your ideal, then the guys in government figured out what was going on, and that's where we've been ever since. It's all a simple extension of diplomacy, which we've been practising for thousands of years. You get exceptions like America for the last 8 years, but that's a flawed electoral system more than anything, which usually results in better democracy in time, and/or dictatorship and ultimately self-destruction.

But if you really feel that opposition policies are ultimately worthless, why bother voting at all?

adam

[Lionel Ritchie]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/f...ns-411171.html
:

RE: Fine Gael ruling coalition with the Green Party ....You'll have to be quick with your stopwatch to clock how long that position stands in the event FG need the numbers.

[Bald Student]

But if you really feel that opposition policies are ultimately worthless, why bother voting at all?

They only have worth if they eventually get implemented, they're not valuable in themselves. I could write all sorts of wonderful things on a sheet of paper and you could vote for me but that wouldn't achieve anything unless I also made some attempt to bring our plans into reality. If the Labour Party take Fintan O'Toole's advice and refuse to enter government, then there was little point in them running in the first place. My opinion of the Greens in roughly the same.

I don't think there's any fundamental difference between our opinions but I think I'm willing to put up with more compromise than you are, possibly because a lot of the things the greens compromised on was stuff I disagreed with.

[Macy]

RE: Fine Gael ruling coalition with the Green Party ....You'll have to be quick with your stopwatch to clock how long that position stands in the event FG need the numbers.

If the election is anything close to the recent polls, they'll only be Clever Trevor left. I'm surprised though, as again on recent polls they could well be able to form a coalition with a smaller party than Labour.

If the Labour Party take Fintan O'Toole's advice and refuse to enter government, then there was little point in them running in the first place.

Not at all, people could vote for Labour enough to give them a majority, or if it forces FG/FF into coalition then the following election will be a straight run off.

My opinion of the Greens in roughly the same

The Greens went in when they weren't needed, so didn't get much in policy compromises. It also means they're stuck now with the consequences. It was a stupid political decision.

FF have agreed to review the Programme for Government. Time will tell if anything material changes

It's actually another poor move by the Government Parties. Assuming poor election results, their come back could've been that they'll review the Programme for Government as a response. Now they've already committed to that and they'll have to come up with something else to justify staying in power.

Still it's nice to see the Greens having a real impact on their partners in Government...
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1743465.html

[Lionel Ritchie]

The Greens went in when they weren't needed, so didn't get much in policy compromises. It also means they're stuck now with the consequences. It was a stupid political decision.

Recently, either earlier in this thread or some other, I alluded to this being the reason for the ultimate schism with Patricia McKenna ...that she didn't feel either the Green Party were in the position of strength neccessary to manipulate a programme for Government in the way the Progressive Democrats once had been. (Not a straight comparison I know as FF adapted PD policy with the same entusiasm as Weyland Smithers did Turkish jail-time.)