League structure...given some serious thought I hope.

[A face]

Mr. T - This post is swiped from another message Board but i had to do it ... i just had ta, i tells ya !!

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I've been trying to look objectively at Bray's proposals, and the longterm structure we need for our league, as at least Brays proposal has put it up for debate. Bloody hell, this is gonna be a long post, but bear with me. I'm a Harps fan, and let me first state that we do not deserve to be in the Premier Division in the current set up. We knew what we had to do, should have maybe won Div 1, but we didn't. Three times. Tough. I've been against the ten team league from the start, our ongoing doomed attempts to get into it have nothing to do with it.

Firstly, people are commenting on Brays proposals without even looking at what they are saying. NOBODY is saying that a 22 team league is the way for the future, read past the first sentence please!!!

Secondly, the proposals arise because a lot of clubs, including Premier Clubs feel the 10 team experiment has not worked, so no need for petty remarks that its being pushed by clubs who couldn't get promoted.

The whole issue of the structure of our league needs to be looked at carefully and serious discussion needs to take place in some forum other than the notoriously "mé fein" league representatives committee.

I like many believe that we need a bigger top flight, somewhere around 14 to 16 teams, as more clubs get to an appropriate standard. Bray's current frustration is justified I think by the fact that in my opinion any of the top three in Division 1 this year could have gone on to compete in the Premier Division. Many who watched Division 1 this season in fact would say that the weakest of the three actually won the title, with some justification, but unfortunately Harps and Bray bottled it, Dublin got the breaks, and vitally the results so fair ****s to them.

So, regarding the Premier, a few of the arguments against a bigger top flight just don't wash with me. The notion that there will be loads of meaningless games in the latter stages which will stagnate the league is a load of balls in my opinion. Why then do all the top leagues in Europe have big divisions? Plenty of less important clashes later on in the Premiership, Serie A, La Liga but they don't kill the league. Even if your team can't win anything you still want to claim a scalp from a title contender or beat your Derby rivals. Its a weak argument and not based on any solid fact. (Also, I feel any perceived detriment from potential meaningless games is far outweighed by the potential benefits.)

In actual fact, I believe the status quo of every team in the 10 team Premier being involved in either a Championship/European chase or a relegation battle is the biggest single problem with the current system. Think about it, any Div 1 team getting up is forced to break the bank, spend spend spend to simply survive in their first season in the Premier. There is a big gap between the average Div 1 side and the average Prem side and in any of the other European leagues previously mentioned success for a newly promoted side is finishing 1 spot above the dropzone. This allows them to reap the benefits of the top flight for a year, gradually build from being a mid table side to challenging for honours. Longford are a great example of this gradual progression on the field, even though they flirted with the playoffs once they are now well in the top 5. This is not "unambitious" as some people have called a team which sets mid table as its target, but realistic and prudent. 'Unambitious' clubs who stand still will soon find themselves passed out by these climbers who do things the right way (e.g.: Charlton and Fulham in England....bye bye Leeds who did the opposite)
Similarly the top 3 or 4 in the Premier are well clear of the rest, but are spending crazy money to do so, and so all our top 3 have serious financial problems. The cost of them dropping out of the top three and the European spots is huge, esp. as if they do they are in the relegation zone, pushing them to spend more on very poor odds of reaping it back from Europe. The advent of professionalism, and the spending of mega bucks to do it is what improved the standards of the Premier, not the ten team league!

So I think a bigger league is the way to go, questions remain about there being enough quality for a 16 team league just yet, however I think 12 is definitely realistic now, possibly phasing it up to 14 or 16 as Div 1 teams progress.....e.g.: the top three in Div 1 this year were clearly ahead of the rest and would compliment a 12 team premier. In a few years if there are another couple of Div 1 clubs making progress it may make a case for further expansion.

So what of the future. The biggest problem in any restructuring is how to maintain a viable and sustainable Division 1 as well as a bigger Premier Division. The basic options at present are to me both pretty unrealistic. Going to a 16 team league and putting the unlucky 6 (we'd probably finish 17th on goal difference on the last day) out of senior football is madness. We want to progress the game not lose clubs. However to have an expanded Division 1 with more junior clubs stepping up to the mark is probably not realistic as yet either.

I think a first division is vital as an entry point to the top flight, a transitional division with smaller expenses which would be attractive for junior clubs with ambition to have a go at if they fancy going all the way. In this light we need to be like every other major football nation and have promotion and relegation at least a possibility to/from the First Division from the Intermediate ranks. However, given the dispersed nature of most of the First its going to be expensive travel wise etc, unless a split regionalised set-up can be adopted. However this probably needs even more extra junior clubs to be feasible.

So what's my answer, well in some ways I don't have one, other than to say that this needs to be looked at by the eircom League, the clubs, the fans, the FAI and the junior associations. Any changes to the first division to allow promotion from the junior ranks would necessitate agreeing changes in structures with the junior/intermediate associations. Any moves to get 2, 4 or even 6 more clubs into the eL would need to be discussed across the board too. This is a mini Genesis report in itself, and sadly I fear the work or though will not be put in. There will be another half assed, half thought out change, which will fall on some key weakness to be replaced another.

My best proposal, go initially to 12 or 14 teams in the premier, and attempt to get at least 2 more clubs into the league for a 10 or 12 team First Div. The First Division is not popular, scorned by many superior Premier clubs fans, but its vital to the game here that its a healthy place to be, to allow clubs rebuild, get their grounds etc, in order and build step by step toward advancement. If possible it should be regionalised, but if not perhaps the league should put up cash, or even use some of the revenue from sponsorship, even from the individual premier clubs, towards subsidising long trips for Div 1 Clubs.

Promotion of the whole league is of course vital too, and a better TV package is one of the best ways forward. Its does not cost the earth to professionally record a clubs home game and perhaps some money should be "taxed" off the premier or off every club to pay for the League to organise recording of all matches and production of a decent highlights show, including magazine type features to give/sell to whichever TV station will take it. This would be subsidised at first but if the whole league progressed could eventually pay for itself as the TV stations would pay for it if it was getting good ratings. To hell with sitting round moaning about the poor TV product. Set up our own production company and make a programme as good as we know if could be, get it on air and see how it goes down..anyway, that's another hobby horse.

Infrastructure regulations are vital too. There need to be realistic standards, which teams must have within a realistic timescale after which nobody gets up to the Premier without Standard A, no junior clubs gets into Div 1 without Standard B. UEFA licensing was nearly this, but it was excessive, under-resourced and railroaded in in a crazy timescale.

[A face]

Finally on the 22 team proposal. IF and its a big IF a sensible, workable proposal for a new structure could be at least well underway in the coming months then a 22 team transitional season for at least one year would probably be a good idea. It could give a year or 2 for the details to be ironed out with the Junior associations etc. It would give a necessary burst of life to the first division strugglers, giving them a chance if they are able to take it of arising from their slumbers. It could, if marketed well inject some interest into the wider country, by reviving some old derby matches, and sending the "big boys" to parts of the country where they are usually never seen. Look at the crowd drawn in Limerick for the visit of Derry this year!
After a season or two of harking back ot the hey day of the LOI in a single division the league could split again at whatever cut off point had been agreed and the non league clubs (who would have time to get their finances and infrastructure sorted) could join the bottom clubs in the new Div 1. Probably a better way of doing it that a Div 1 with promotion for the top 4 and no relegation.

However, this is the ideal model and is dependant on getting our arses in gear and actually thinking about how to structure the league. No more knee jerks, figure it out, phase it, and do it. Will it happen??? I fear not.

TG

PS: The real ideal is for the extra clubs to come from amalgamating with the Irish League in a proper all ireland competition, as set out in Johnny Ward's last editorial on the old site, but this sadly is probably a long way off yet.

[Xlex]

ah come of it A Face, we know your a copy and paste merchant... you should open all your posts with I just got to...

All-Ireland League the way forward for Irish football

Editorial - May 1, 2002:
Over the three seasons I have edited this website, I believe that I have learned much about what is required for Irish football to ever fulfill its potential. In this period, the National League decided to revert to a summer football format, and to reduce the number of top flight teams to just 10.

Both of these decisions - irrespective of their merit - were made in an astonishingly blind-folded manner. In any other League, would such a significant and risky move such as the adoption of summer soccer have been made without any consultation with the players?

Indeed, while it would have made perfect sense to conduct market research - to conduct a survey at international matches to find out what would attract non-supporters to eircom League grounds - this never happened and it highlights the desperation and myopia that keeps the League in its disgraceful position as one of the worst in Europe.

National League clubs have been let down by the incompetence of their leaders in the FAI, but when the AGMs take place at the end of the season, nothing is done. How president Michael Hyland has survived until now beggars belief.

The clubs themselves have extreme difficulties in their bid to stay alive but their causes have not been helped by shambolic management, no promotion and marketing, gross selfishness, and - above all - their ability to remain incompetent because of a lack of sanctions from the FAI.

What I propose now is a blueprint for the future of Irish football - north and south. It is more of a suggestion than anything else; I know it will not be realised; and it is based merely on the knowledge I have gained in the past three years.

While the National League is probably making a slow improvement in terms of standards, the Irish League is in an appalling state with apathy, massive debts and a poor standard of football common everywhere you look.

I realise that an all-Ireland League has been debated time and time again in recent years, but I firmly believe that it must happen for Irish football to ever prosper in the coming years.

My suggestion is four divisions of teams - 52 clubs in all, 26 from each state. I realise that that is a disproportionately high number of Northern clubs, but over a few seasons the best clubs would flourish and it is most likely that most of the top teams will be from the Republic, which is only logical given its population and the superiority of the eircom League.

The Premier Division would comprise 16 teams, as would the First Division. Each team plays each other twice. The bottom two Divisions are regionalised - the Second Division Northern Section and the Second Division Southern Section. There are 10 teams in each, and each team will play each other three times.

The beauty of this system is that every club has a goal to fight for - unlike the status quo where First Division clubs have nothing to play for unless they are challenging for promotion, which inspires apathy and inefficiency.

Before I go any further, here is how the four Divisions would look, based wholly on how the leagues ended up this season. The top eight teams from each Premier Divison north and south in the season just past would go into the Premier Division, the next best eight from each league would join the First Division, and so on:

PREMIER DIVISION:
Bohemians
Bray Wdrs
Cliftonville
Coleraine
Cork City
Derry City
Glenavon
Glentoran
Linfield
Newry Town
Omagh Town
Portadown
St Pat's Ath
Shamrock Rvs
Shelbourne
UCD

FIRST DIVISION:
Ards
Ballymena United
Bangor
Crusaders
Drogheda Utd
Dublin City
Dundalk
Dungannon Swifts
Finn Harps
Galway Utd
Institute
Larne
Lisburn Distillery
Longford Town
Monaghan Utd
Waterford Utd

SECOND DIVISION NORTHERN SECTION:
Armagh City
Ballyclare Comrades
Carrick Rangers
Donegal Celtic
Dundela
HW Welders
Limavady United
Lurgan Celtic
Moyola Park
Tobermore United

SECOND DIVISION SOUTHERN SECTION:
Athlone Town
Castlebar Celtic
Cobh Ramblers
Kildare County
Kilkenny City
Limerick
Mervue United
Mullingar Town
Sligo Rovers
Tralee Dynamoes

Please do not discount the plan if your club is in an unattractive division. The list of teams above is merely an example of what would happen if the new league were based on this season's standings. I have also added four southern teams into the League - Castlebar Celtic, Mervue United, Mullingar Town and Tralee Dynamoes - though I fully realise if four teams joined the League this list would probably not be correct.

The League would be named the "Irish Super League", preceeded by the name of a major sponsor - such as the "Guinness Irish Super League". In addition to the major sponsors, there would be a series of additional corporate sponsors - such as Lucozade Sport as the official energy drink, Mitre as the official match ball, Yorkie as the official chocolate, and so on. This has been widely practiced in other leagues and is a vital source of income.

There would also be lucrative TV deals with the major companies. Remember that the League would have several players to negotiate with such as RTÉ, BBC, UTV, Sky Television and TV3. The possibilities are endless here.

All games would be played at the same time - preferrably on Saturday afternoon or Saturday night - with one 'live' game going ahead on its own on Friday night.

Because it is a cross-border initiative, both the Irish and British governments would provide, potentially, millions of pounds to make it succeed. The importance of this cannot be overstated.

With all these finances available, it would be quite possible to sustain a completely professional Premier Division, a semi-professional First Division, and an amateur Second Division.

If it is deemed too risky to have a fully professional top flight, this Division should be a mixture of full-time and part-time clubs. Clubs that embark on a full-time policy should be entitled to grants from the League and governments.

It is important that the two Second Divisions are amateur. Because, realistically, income would be small here, it would be extremely difficult to pay players. Without this burden, clubs could organise themselves better off the pitch and be financially secure if they get promoted to the First Division.

Three teams would get relegated from the Premier Division every year, with three replacing them from the First Division. Two teams would go down from the First Division, replaced by one team from each of the Second Divisions.

Should a situation arise whereby both teams finishing bottom of the First Division were from either the North or the South, they would still be replaced by one team from each Second Division. This would leave one Second Division with nine teams and another with 11.

In such instances, one team would join the Second Division with nine teams - if a candidate were available from one of the junior leagues - and the bottom team would drop out of the other Second Division, with no team taking its place for that season.

This sounds more complex than it is. Ideally, there would be several clubs applying for membership of the Northern or Southern section every year, and there certainly would be if the League were prospering.

All clubs would have to meet certain standards to be allowed into the League. This would include, for all 52 clubs: an official match programme and website, detailed financial accounts, means of counting the attendance at each match, a home ground enclosed by a wall and with a wall around the pitch, dressing rooms of a high standard, male and female toilets, and so on.

In addition, First Division clubs would be required to have a seated, covered stand holding 1,000 spectators, and a shop selling merchandise and hot and cold food. Premier Division clubs would have to have a ground containing a seated, covered stand holding 2,000 spectators. Regulations regarding youth teams, which are of the utmost importance, would also be in place.

The headquarters of the League would be in Dublin, but regular meetings of all the clubs would take place all over the country, up to half the time in Northern Ireland. Clubs should discuss whether or not to run the League themselves, or for it to be linked to both the FAI and the IFA.

The clubs would have to discuss timing. Summer soccer may be unrealistic in the North, though potential difficulties could be averted by taking a break in the troublesome weeks in July or ensuring that matches during this period are fixed for southern grounds. It is possible that winter football may be the only option but this is not necessarily a bad thing.

I firmly believe that such a League, with massive promotion and publicity, would revolutionise Irish soccer. I would like this idea to be debated among the clubs, if nothing else.

Until then, much needs to be done in the eircom League. Clubs need to start promoting themselves. The number of clubs that issued press released to this website this year could be counted on one hand. This, simply, is reprehensible and beleagured clubs cannot moan about their predicament if this is how they run themselves.

Scouting of players at home and abroad must improve. In the FAI Cup final, no player was from either the UK or Ireland, and it is no coincidence that both teams had trouble stringing three passes together. Eric Lavine and Charles Mbabazi Livingstone have been two of the most talented players in the League, and they bring a different dimension to the proceedings.

[Xlex]

The League has the advantage of its proximity to England in this way. Foreign players can be told that they will be noticed in England if they do well in Ireland. Talented players are playing in foreign leagues for appalling wages, and many would jump at the chance to come to Ireland. This must be encouraged.

Additionally, young Irish players in Ireland need to be offered a place at eircom League clubs. It is pathetic that so many of our youngsters are snapped up by foreign teams before an Irish club even noticed them. The practice of bringing back players that are disillusioned with British football has become more prevalent and this is to be welcomed.

[Ger o Brien out]

totally agree with your league structure.

[tiktok]

I have in the past shouted down people who put forward an all ireland league, most often because it's rarely well thought out. Xlex, your suggestion is well thought out and structured, and a huge improvement on others I've seen, but there are a few flaws (i mean to be constructive here).

you're structure is solid, regionalisation of the teams is essential to keep travelling costs down for what are essentially amateur clubs, but relegation and promotion remains a problem. At the moment the EL is stronger than the IL, it's likely that for a few years that firmer IL teams would prop the first division up, this would lead to an imbalance as to relegated clubs.

Your suggestion of junior sides coming in to fill the gap is a good one, nevertheless you could still end up with a second south with ten clubs and a second north with thirteen or fourteen, which in turn creates a problem of extra southern clubs in Div. 1, which increases costs for any club coming up from North Div 2.

other than that, structure is perfect.

two things not addressed are whether the league would be a summer or winter one? either IL or EL would have to change their current practice, which in a roundabout way leads to the last problem, it'd have to be a winter league IMO, because an all ireland league would add to the tensions at the start of July were southern teams to play certain northern teams.

fnally, can you see the IFA going for this.
we've seen what can only be described as paranoia on some of the message boards recently when the subject of the two Irelands relationship i football terms is broached. the republic has already been accused of stealing young prospects from the north, i can see certain groups believing that an all ireland league would lad to a further drain on talent from the north into the repulic's underage ranks.

[Xlex]

I should seriously hope it's well thought out...

credit to JW... it was his last editorial on eircomleague.net

[lefty]

Absolutely brilliant thats what the league structure you have stated is. Absolutely fu*king amazing. And its relatively simple aswell which could easily be implemented over a few seasons. You should deffinetely forward a copy of that message to both the FAI and IFA

[pineapple stu]

Originally posted by tiktok
Your structure is solid, regionalisation of the teams is essential to keep travelling costs down for what are essentially amateur clubs, but relegation and promotion remains a problem. At the moment the EL is stronger than the IL, it's likely that for a few years that firmer IL teams would prop the first division up, this would lead to an imbalance as to relegated clubs.

In fairness, more IL clubs than eL clubs should end up getting relegated, since the North has only roughly one-quarter of the population of the island, so should end up with roughly four teams in a top flight of 16. Relegation to the regional leagues could be sorted by not making the divides so rigid - i.e. instead of an exclusively Northern Irish Division 2, just have a Div 2 North, which could include the likes of Monaghan, Harps or Drogheda, should they drop that low.

I saw the idea on JW's website back when he posted it originally, and it's a great idea, but of course the problem of the IFA would be hard to get over. And maybe regionalisation should be considered from Division 1, not Division 2?

[pineapple stu]

Incidentally, if the North ceases to have a league, wouldn't that mean that it wouldn't be able to have its national team any more either? There's many years to go yet before they'd let that happen...

[eoinh]

Originally posted by pineapple stu
Incidentally, if the North ceases to have a league, wouldn't that mean that it wouldn't be able to have its national team any more either?

well Liectenstein clubs play in the swiss league. (Vaduz a team from Liectensteins capital are in the swiss second division at present - they nearly got promoted last year).

Yet Liectenstein has a national team, so that shouldnt be a problem

[Ringo]

Originally posted by lefty
Absolutely brilliant thats what the league structure you have stated is. Absolutely fu*king amazing. And its relatively simple aswell which could easily be implemented over a few seasons. You should deffinetely forward a copy of that message to both the FAI and IFA

hold on, this was done in 2002, you'd be in the first division, still attractive?

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by pineapple stu
Incidentally, if the North ceases to have a league, wouldn't that mean that it wouldn't be able to have its national team any more either? There's many years to go yet before they'd let that happen...

Sure wouldn't it be their's as much as ours!

[Éanna]

I think the chances of an All-Ireland league are a minimal. The IFA don't want it, and the FAI couldn't organise it. I think what we need now is a 16 team Premier and 2 regionalised first divisions with, say 10 or 12 teams in them, or maybe something in the same structure as the U-21 league. The 22 team league is a no-no- you need relgation, and it won't help people get their house in order. Devlin's main argument for it was "there'll be more derbies, which will encourage bigger crowds" If there's one good thing to come out of this joke that is a 10-team league its that more derbies doesn't necessarily mean more crowds. Whatever happens, the status quo is only going to make things worse.

[Ringo]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
Sure wouldn't it be there's as much as ours!

not bleeden Irelands call again

[tiktok]

Originally posted by pineapple stu
In fairness, more IL clubs than eL clubs should end up getting relegated, since the North has only roughly one-quarter of the population of the island, so should end up with roughly four teams in a top flight of 16. Relegation to the regional leagues could be sorted by not making the divides so rigid - i.e. instead of an exclusively Northern Irish Division 2, just have a Div 2 North, which could include the likes of Monaghan, Harps or Drogheda, should they drop that low

Good point, but surely the IFA wouldn't like to go into a league where down the line only four clubs in the country are playing top flight football.

[Colm]

An all Ireland league is not going to happen anytime in the foreseeable future, so we can forget about that.
The 22 team league would be a joke, as would a 16 team league imo. There would be far too many sub standard teams who would drag down the overall standard of the league. It would also reduce attendances as there will be too many meaningless or one sided games.
Even when we had the 12 team premier there was often one or two teams who were miles adrift at the bottom, imagine what that would be like with 22 or 16 teams!
For the moment the 10 team premier is the best way to have it. As much as we complain about Dublin clubs, in Cork we'll always get a far bigger crowd against any of the "big" Dublin clubs than we would against say Derry or Longford.
I would much rather see more non-Dublin teams in the Premier but until they get themselves sorted they don't deserve to be there. Why should we extend the size of the league to accomadate clubs who are not willing to get their houses in order.

[Éanna]

10 teams is simply not enough. with 16 teams, teams could play each other twice and avoid fixture congestion like this season, and avoid the over-familiarity that makes it boring. Apart from that the chance of a number of non-dub teams being in it would be a welcome thing, but by no means certain. You could have Bray, UCD and Dundalk in there as well as the current crop, so it wouldn't make much of a difference. But IMO clubs like Harps and Bray, and Galway would bring something to the league and could be encouraged to improve and compete

[pineapple stu]

Originally posted by eoinh
well Liectenstein clubs play in the swiss league. (Vaduz a team from Liectensteins capital are in the swiss second division at present - they nearly got promoted last year).

Yet Liectenstein has a national team, so that shouldnt be a problem

True - wonder how they got around that...?

I'd say there's definitely enough teams for a 12 team league - everybody goes on about how Monaghan and Kilkenny were woeful, but very few teams were that far adrift - it was far more common for the bottom team to have a points total in the mid-20s, which was at least someway competitive. Certainly Bray, Harps and us aren't that far off Premier standard that it's a bonus keeping us out.

As for the IFA - if they were up for it (which they won't be, but anyway), I suppose they could see it as progress to have four or five much improved clubs rather than the current situation. But realistically, any unified league is going to be based on a unified Ireland, so the IFA wouldn't exist any more.

[pete]

Originally posted by Colm
Even when we had the 12 team premier there was often one or two teams who were miles adrift at the bottom, imagine what that would be like with 22 or 16 teams!
For the moment the 10 team premier is the best way to have it.

Agreed. I for one don't miss home or away games against the previous Premier division wiping boys. No disrespect to Monaghan but was embarishing to have them in the Premier division!

I'd love to see more non-dub teams in the Premier & don't think would have this annual moan if it was the case.

The ten team league the only option that currently works cos of the numbers.

12 - No goos cos have to play 3 rounds of fixtures which everyone was complaining about for for years!
14 - with 2 rounds of fixtutres is 28 games enough?
16 - only got 6 teams in the 1st division then so what happens there? the league has lost st francis & st james gate in recent years so can't see 4 junior teams queuing up to join the eL.
16+ - where do the remaining 1st division teams go?

1 division eL (18-22 clubs) - won't work cos be no relegation or if there was would be too big a step for junior clubs.

IMO people complain about the 10 team premier cos
- their club isn't in it.
- too many dub teams.
- success of bohs & shels hasn't lead to increased crowds for them (possibly due to too much familiarity).

Merger with IL while be good ain't a runner in the near future so no use thinking about!