Roy Keane

**DeLorean** · 17/09/2009, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

to think that our views on this issue are based on where we grew up is madness in my view.

I generally agree with your posts Neil as I find them balanced and you are anti extremes in relation to almost everything. However, I do think Geography has a major role to play in the Saipan debate. Between Geography and the whole Liverpool/Man U allegence I find that a huge percentage will sway accordingly. Man U fans in Cork will for the most part be pro Keane. Liverpool fans outside Cork will be anti Keane. Don't think it's a Dublin issue particularly and I'd imagine they would be fairly divided, often determined by which club one supports, like the rest of the country ex Cork. Of course there are also plenty of level headed people who will base it on Saipan, and nothing more.

**geysir** · 17/09/2009, 1:40 PM

I don't know about that Fitzy.

Roy was welcomed back to the Irish team under Brian Kerr.
Before that, opinion was divided on his return, in what proportion I am not sure.Vast majority of fans appreciated to have Roy back on the pitch giving his all.Our thoughts are for the best chances for the team as a functioning unit.
I think a similar latitude was offered by fans to Stephen Ireland.

If Roy just let the Saipan issue go, we would not be talking about it now,
therefore it is Roy's fault

**NeilMcD** · 17/09/2009, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by DeLorean

I generally agree with your posts Neil as I find them balanced and you are anti extremes in relation to almost everything. However, I do think Geography has a major role to play in the Saipan debate. Between Geography and the whole Liverpool/Man U allegence I find that a huge percentage will sway accordingly. Man U fans in Cork will for the most part be pro Keane. Liverpool fans outside Cork will be anti Keane. Don't think it's a Dublin issue particularly and I'd imagine they would be fairly divided, often determined by which club one supports, like the rest of the country ex Cork. Of course there are also plenty of level headed people who will base it on Saipan, and nothing more.

Ok I give you the Liverpool Man Utd thing and Cork, but I have seen no evidence other than that. The LIverpool and Man Utd thing in Ireland is bizarre anyway, calling each other Mancs and Scousers and they both grow up in the same estate in Artane or Cloghleigh.

**Stuttgart88** · 17/09/2009, 1:52 PM

I think a really sad factor in the Irish support now is that a lot of the fans who "came of age" in the mid 90s relate to MUFC or Liverpool first, Ireland second. It's totally ludicrous how they let their club allegiances affect their support of Ireland.

That said, my brother is a Liverpool fan and he came down heavily on Keane's side post-Saipan.

**Superhoops** · 17/09/2009, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

......I have found that those that I speak to who are or were anti Keane are even more anti Stephen Ireland. I think a lot of the fans who travel all over the world supporting Ireland and have done for years, felt hurt and insulted by Keanes actions, and the same feelings are felt in relation to Stephen Ireland.

Spot on NeilMcD. Exactly right

**Stuttgart88** · 17/09/2009, 2:00 PM

Yep, agree to that

**an_ceannaire** · 17/09/2009, 2:06 PM

Wonder is it too soon to ask Whoopi Goldberg has she seen Patrick Swazye yet......

I know I know........
Sorry!!
Keano Rules..........!!

**Fitzy** · 17/09/2009, 2:06 PM

Neil, I'm only talking from my experiences in London with regards to Keane & Stephen Ireland. Everyone I spoke to over here in 2002 were all slagging off Roy Keane, it was almost impossible to find anyone who thought there was fault on both sides, or who was in Keane's camp. The same people are all desperate for Stephen Ireland to come back, despite the way he has messed everyone about, and some of them are even blaming Trap for not doing enough to persuade him to come back. At least Keane got us to the 2002 World Cup, Stephen Ireland will probably never play for us again.

**NeilMcD** · 17/09/2009, 2:14 PM

Fair enough, Fitzy but must say I have not come into contact with anybody who has those views which to me and you seem like a contradiction anyway.

**an_ceannaire** · 17/09/2009, 2:26 PM

anyone remember that infamous interview Dunphy gave to the BBC? Ray Stubbs being the interviewer. I remember watching it with the 2 uncles who were staunch McCarthy-ites and it was funny to watch them cos u could see they were struggling with their conscience. On one hand they were anti-roy, but listening to Stubbs basically make a buffoon and criminal of our best player on British TV nearly pushed them twoards the light!!! I remember Dunphy coming to within an inch of telling Good Ol Ray to f**k off live on the beeb. Now that WOULD have been hilarious!
The reporting from Britain was scandalous. You would think to listen to them at the time that the country was 100% anti-keane! They totally went with the "people turn on keane" angle and totally ignored the fact that up 50% of Irish people were Pro Roy!!! The when Paul McGrath actually made that point on "your on sky sports" Peter Beagrie and Steve Claridge nearly fell off the chair in aghast and shock!!!

**Stuttgart88** · 17/09/2009, 2:29 PM

Most of my mates think about the Irish team about 4 times a year max. They think (a) we're crap (b) S. Ireland is brilliant so (c) we'd be brilliant if we had Stephen Ireland.

**NeilMcD** · 17/09/2009, 2:36 PM

Get new mates Stutts. Start hanging around people who care about the Irish football team, makes life easier. Throw in a few birds that dont really like football and he presto you got a good group of people.

**seanfhear** · 17/09/2009, 2:43 PM

I have a hundred times more respect for Roy Keane (especially as an Irish player) than I have for Stephen Ireland.

**an_ceannaire** · 17/09/2009, 2:45 PM

I am an Ireland fan, a massive Roy Keane fan, but I wouldnt let Stehen Ireland anywhere near the Ireland team now even if he asked to come back.
Completely different situation.

**OwlsFan** · 17/09/2009, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think a really sad factor in the Irish support now is that a lot of the fans who "came of age" in the mid 90s relate to MUFC or Liverpool first, Ireland second. It's totally ludicrous how they let their club allegiances affect their support of Ireland.

Some went even further back. I travelled to Euro 88 with a friend of mine and numerous other away games prior to that. A big Man U fan who turned his back on Ireland after Saipan. The first home game after Saipan I asked him why he wasn't coming to the game. "Why should I support the muppets who let Roy down?" were his exact words. He's never been to an Ireland game since and I haven't seen him socially since.

It still divides.

**paul_oshea** · 17/09/2009, 4:55 PM

I know a lad who was a massive Ireland fan(well so he says i didnt know him before hand) but he is a big UTD fan, and he turned his back on Ireland after saipan, i assume the whole keane affair put him off.

BUT AT the end of the day if a person does this, it shows their loyaly HAS always been more with "their" club than their country.

**OwlsFan** · 17/09/2009, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Fitzy

However, whatever your views about Saipan, there is no way we would have qualified for 2002 without Roy Keane. He was immense in every game in that qualifying group (with the exception of Iran at home), especially against Portugal and Holland at home.

Surprisingly enough football is a team game and we wouldn't have qualified for 2002 without a lot of the players, particularly Shay Given and of course Jason McAteer!!

My favourite foolball photo of all time.

**NeilMcD** · 17/09/2009, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Some went even further back. I travelled to Euro 88 with a friend of mine and numerous other away games prior to that. A big Man U fan who turned his back on Ireland after Saipan. The first home game after Saipan I asked him why he wasn't coming to the game. "Why should I support the muppets who let Roy down?" were his exact words. He's never been to an Ireland game since and I haven't seen him socially since.

It still divides.

Great excuse to get rid of you though. I met a guy in Bari who said he told a guy who supported Ireland and Wednesday that he does not support Ireland anymore and he fell for it

**Stuttgart88** · 17/09/2009, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

I am an Ireland fan, a massive Roy Keane fan

So you're a bigger RK fan than you are an Ireland fan? I think you've got your priorities wrong.

Not being aggressive here, but can you find fault with any of Roy's position in Saipan? I can find fault & can also find mitigants. I can find fault with McCarthy, but on balance I felt overwhelmingly let down by Keane.

If I had a row with a colleague or my manager at work, but felt there was a big deal to be won I'd have perservered through my troubles. This is where I think Keane was wrong.

I think Roy was a perfectionist but I also think he was unstable at the time for whatever reason - the faultlines were on show even before Saipan -and people who put forward the argument that Keane was just acting on principle are overlooking the fact that they guy just wasn't in a good place mentally. Ultimately the situation was a failure of management (Mick & above) but I also think Keane was unmanagable at the time.

**bennocelt** · 17/09/2009, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by smasher

What do you expect from a pig but a grunt!
By the way. Some people are talking about glorifying in Ipswich's dilemena. Its nothing that 50million cant solve, ala Sunderland.

ok right!!!good point