Premier League 2 with Old Firm ?

[osarusan]

It seems that all this time the foot.ie poster Celtic Tiger was the chairman of Bolton Wanderers.

[DeLorean]

BL, you aren't explaining here how English Division 2 would generate this extra money. I can't see any way in which D2 strugglers (maybe teams like Blackpool, Doncaster etc. from the current season) would get anywhere near the income from prize money, TV deal that teams like Villa, Everton, Spurs etc. could expect.

I wasn't attempting to explain how the extra money was going to be generated. I have no idea. In relation to the prize money well that obviously not going to be shared equally but I was under the impression that the TV money was.

Abolishing or severely restricting relegation from D2 might give security (although it risks atrophying the league, without the possibility of promotion from below). That's completely different from the point above though, surely?

Not really with yasorry

Do you seriously think Barnsley against Celtic or Rangers (or even Newcastle or Sunderland against one of them) would have the same attraction as the likely Champions' League qualifiers, if either or both the Scots were mired in D2 mid-table?

No, did I say something to suggest that?

Reducing the number from three to two will only protect one team per season, hardly a big deal. Reducing it to one or potentially zero (through a play-off, or maybe a certification scheme where you need a demanding miniumum standard of facilities, say 20,000 seats) risks distorting the whole system by reducing the realistic incentive of promotion to most lower division clubs.

The amount of relegated teams from PL1 to PL2 would be 2. I didn't really have a problem with this. I was saying that only one team being relegated from PL2 to the Football League was too little.

[Gather round]

I wasn't attempting to explain how the extra money was going to be generated. I have no idea. In relation to the prize money well that obviously not going to be shared equally but I was under the impression that the TV money was

It simply won't be generated, because protecting Barnsley or Doncaster from relegation to D3 isn't of any interest to the people who would provide it (ie, those TV viewers who want to watch the top Prem teams and the CL).

Not really with yasorry

You seemed to be linking Celtic and Rangers joining English D2, with protecting other teams in D2 against relegation. At best, they're two separate issues; at worst they self-contradict (because two extra teams would have to be relegated to accommodate the Glaswegians).

No, did I say something to suggest that?

Yes, you said that TV money would be equally shared (so that fifth or sixth in D1 would get the same as 19th or 20th in D2). This implies that you and/ or the TV companies think that the two categories of club are equally attractive to TV. They aren't.

The amount of relegated teams from PL1 to PL2 would be 2. I didn't really have a problem with this. I was saying that only one team being relegated from PL2 to the Football League was too little

Hang on, I didn't mention promotion to and relegation from PL1*. The problem (from the clubs' point of view) with your suggestion of two clubs being relegated from PL2, is that it only 'protects' one more club than now. As you may have guessed, I'd prefer it to be four, but I'll compromise on three

* I'm afraid I think the locked trapdoor is much more likely to come between the present Prem and championship. The Prem could quite likely introduce a two-leg play-off for the second promotion place, or a harsh minimum standard of facilities to get a Prem licence, as I suggested above.

[DeLorean]

It simply won't be generated, because protecting Barnsley or Doncaster from relegation to D3 isn't of any interest to the people who would provide it (ie, those TV viewers who want to watch the top Prem teams and the CL).

Yes, you said that TV money would be equally shared (so that fifth or sixth in D1 would get the same as 19th or 20th in D2). This implies that you and/ or the TV companies think that the two categories of club are equally attractive to TV. They aren't.

Ya I can't see how it would be generated either. Thought I had read somewhere bout the equal TV rights but on reading the article again there was nothing about it!! my bad

You seemed to be linking Celtic and Rangers joining English D2, with protecting other teams in D2 against relegation. At best, they're two separate issues; at worst they self-contradict (because two extra teams would have to be relegated to accommodate the Glaswegians).

I was saying that there are 14 extra PL places available (PL1&PL2) despite the inclusion of Celtic/Rangers and this might still be attractive to a lot of clubs. This depends on how much better of they would be in PL2 compared to the existing Championship.

Hang on, I didn't mention promotion to and relegation from PL1*. The problem (from the clubs' point of view) with your suggestion of two clubs being relegated from PL2, is that it only 'protects' one more club than now. As you may have guessed, I'd prefer it to be four, but I'll compromise on three

I didn't suggest 2 clubs being relegated from PL2. I said that one was too little. I would prefer 3 or 4 myself in fact. I did mention that it is being proposed that only 2 were being relegated from PL1 to PL2 which I don't have a problem.

[Gather round]

I was saying that there are 14 extra PL places available (PL1&PL2) despite the inclusion of Celtic/Rangers and this might still be attractive to a lot of clubs. This depends on how much better of they would be in PL2 compared to the existing Championship

But there aren't, because whether you leave the Championship named as it is, or rename it PL2 as you'd prefer, or just revert to Division 2 as I'd prefer, its status remains the same. Second-rate. There just isn't any way round that, unless you either have 32 teams all playing each other during the season (which would be absurd), or split the 32 on some other criterion (regional?). Which the existing Prem teams wouldn't like, because they'd have less games against each other and more against Barnsley or Doncaster. Which wouldn't make them (the big boys) any happier, believe me.

I didn't suggest 2 clubs being relegated from PL2. I said that one was too little. I would prefer 3 or 4 myself in fact

Glad we agree, but the whole point of the higher number is that weakens, rather than protects as you were previously suggesting, the teams in D2?

I did mention that it is being proposed that only 2 were being relegated from PL1 to PL2 which I don't have a problem

OK, but broadly speaking it's restrictive and inconsistent. If three or four can come up from the third, why not three or four down from the first?

[DeLorean]

Glad we agree, but the whole point of the higher number is that weakens, rather than protects as you were previously suggesting, the teams in D2??

What I was previously saying was that the extra 16 PL places would protect a lot of clubs PL status. However, this is useless if PL2 if just another name for the Championship and you are probably right in suggesting that it is. Depends on what financial package PL2 offers compared to the existing Championship (if there's any difference?)

OK, but broadly speaking it's restrictive and inconsistent. If three or four can come up from the third, why not three or four down from the first?

Well seeing as PL1 will have a reduced number of clubs (ie.18) I think it is reasonable enough that a club less would be relegated. However, if the gap between PL2(or the Championship) and the third tier is getting even bigger, I think it would be fairer to give the clubs below a fair chance of getting in on the action.