Northern Ireland

[Den Perry]

Of course you are entitled to your views - just as I must be entitled to express my disapproval when your views appear to be influenced by prejudice and ignorance, rather than by purely objective, footballing factors.

Not sure that it's the vast majority (though might be); anyhow, "I don't like them because they don't like us" is the basis of most footballing rivalries, and so long as that is not used as an excuse for excessive abuse of the other lot etc, it seems acceptable enough to me, I suppose.


Some revisionism going on here, I must say, for in an earlier post (#22), you explained your antipathy towards NI as follows:
"I supported them in '82 and '86, but after experiences at the Milk Cup and what went on in '93 I would support any other team (even Turkey) ahead of NI"
No sign of anything about "NI fans wanting to see ROI teams lose" there...

Really? Care to explain this particular comment, then, also from post #22?
"I feel a little guilty towards Gather Round, because you seem a decent sort,but Ealing Green is another reason I would not support NI."
(On second thoughts, no explanation is necessary, since I'm just about managing to cope with the hurt )

Simple enough, really. You have explained your disinclination to give any support to NI due to instances* of bad behaviour by (some of) our fans. "I'd sooner support England or even Turkey before NI" was how you put it, I think.
Now considering the Lansdowne Riot by England fans, plus the thoroughly disgraceful behaviour by Turkish fans (including murder), I concluded that that your dislike of the NI team/fans actually stems from irrational prejudice.
Then I noted that you had travelled to Istanbul with Leeds, which caused me to wonder whether you weren't also a Leeds United fan.
For if you are/were, considering that club's long and continuing reputation for hooliganism etc amongst the support, then for you to cast aspersions on the NI support would make you a hypocrite of a pretty low order.


* - Btw, were you actually at the Milk Cup to witness the abuse you cite? Were you at the NI/ROI game at Windsor in 1993? Have you ever been at any NI international, whether in Belfast or overseas?

EG, re your arguments above:

1. you state that my reasons for not liking NI are not for "purely objective football factors"
-does this mean that your reasons for supporting NI are not based on where you come from or your heritage? because these are not "purely objective football factors"

2. You accuse me of revisionism. I am so sorry that I neglected to include an example in my original argument? Does that preclude me from doing so at a later point?

3. Ok. it is personal....you really are a c ock (IMO)

4.Re Leeds Utd- as you have just cast aspirations on Leeds Utd, and considering Northern Ireland's long and continued reputation among its support,does this not make you a hypocrite of the highest order?

5. Yes I was at the Milk Cup to witness the abuse first hand -
No, I did not go to Windsor in 1993....it would have been very ill advised
Yes I have been to a NI international...against Ireland in Dublin. As to whether I have seen them abroad? why in God's name would I travel to see pi ss poor international team unless I supported them?

[Gather round]

-does this mean that your reasons for supporting NI are not based on where you come from or your heritage? because these are not "purely objective football factors"

Both of your reasons for choosing who or not to support are subjective- as are Den's for disliking NI more than any other team. But supporting your local team is probably more rational and predictable than any reason you've given for your NI phobia?

Re Leeds Utd- as you have just cast aspirations on Leeds Utd, and considering Northern Ireland's long and continued reputation among its support,does this not make you a hypocrite of the highest order?

I've no wish to rubbish Leeds United and their aspirations to win the English League 47th place play-off. Nor to cast aspersions...

why in God's name would I travel to see pi ss poor international team unless I supported them?

Steady on old boy. We're many things but ****-poor isn't one of them. Beat a higher-ranked team occasionally and you can join us

[EalingGreen]

EG, re your arguments above:

1. you state that my reasons for not liking NI are not for "purely objective football factors"
-does this mean that your reasons for supporting NI are not based on where you come from or your heritage? because these are not "purely objective football factors"

It's quite simple. I support NI because that's where I was born, just as you (presumably) support ROI for the same reasons. But that was not my point, which was that you also denigrate another team.
Fair enough, you are entitled to do so, for whatever reason or none. Just as I am entitled to point out my scorn for people who do so clearly out of political prejudice, ignorance and spite, rather than objective, footballing reasons.

2. You accuse me of revisionism. I am so sorry that I neglected to include an example in my original argument? Does that preclude me from doing so at a later point?

I've already addressed that point - stop playing the victim.

3. Ok. it is personal....you really are a c ock (IMO)

Charming.

4.Re Leeds Utd- as you have just cast aspirations on Leeds Utd, and considering Northern Ireland's long and continued reputation among its support,does this not make you a hypocrite of the highest order?

No. It was your point, not mine, that one cannot/should not support a team (in my case, NI) because of the (alleged) actions of a section of that team's support.
Seeing as you evidently support Leeds, a team with a long and continuing reputation for hooliganism amongst a section of its support, then it is you who are the hypocrite.
For the record, I have never denied or defended when some of my fellow NI fans have misbehaved. However, since I have never believed that the decent majority should depart and leave the hoolie minority a free run, I have chosen to stay with the team and attempt to put things right (in my own small way).
As such, I greatly admire eg those many decent Leeds fans who are sticking with their team, even in the 3rd Division, whilst they try to drown out the hooligans.

5. Yes I was at the Milk Cup to witness the abuse first hand -

But you still have not explained why you can tarnish the entire support of an international team, based on the actions, many years back, of a small minority of yobs at a junior Summer football tournament.
By that token, I could take my experience of having been stoned by fans/passers-by/hangers-on? on leaving an NI game at Landsdowne, as an excuse to condemn the entire ROI support.

No, I did not go to Windsor in 1993....it would have been very ill advised

Really? That's not what Gspain relates. Then again, he was only at the game (as well as other, much more recent games at WP).

Yes I have been to a NI international...against Ireland in Dublin.

Now let me see. The last time NI played "Ireland" [sic] in Dublin was almost exactly 10 years ago. Assuming that that is the game you're referring to, remind me again of how that qualifies you to pontificate on the behaviour of NI fans (home and abroad) in the 21st Century?
I'm surprised you can even remember* it.

* - Speaking of which, can you remind me of the score that day?

As to whether I have seen them abroad? why in God's name would I travel to see pi ss poor international team unless I supported them?

http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/prelimi...ngs/index.html (Group Three )

[Den Perry]

It's quite simple. I support NI because that's where I was born, just as you (presumably) support ROI for the same reasons. But that was not my point, which was that you also denigrate another team.
Fair enough, you are entitled to do so, for whatever reason or none. Just as I am entitled to point out my scorn for people who do so clearly out of political prejudice, ignorance and spite, rather than objective, footballing reasons.


I've already addressed that point - stop playing the victim.


Charming.


No. It was your point, not mine, that one cannot/should not support a team (in my case, NI) because of the (alleged) actions of a section of that team's support.
Seeing as you evidently support Leeds, a team with a long and continuing reputation for hooliganism amongst a section of its support, then it is you who are the hypocrite.
For the record, I have never denied or defended when some of my fellow NI fans have misbehaved. However, since I have never believed that the decent majority should depart and leave the hoolie minority a free run, I have chosen to stay with the team and attempt to put things right (in my own small way).
As such, I greatly admire eg those many decent Leeds fans who are sticking with their team, even in the 3rd Division, whilst they try to drown out the hooligans.


But you still have not explained why you can tarnish the entire support of an international team, based on the actions, many years back, of a small minority of yobs at a junior Summer football tournament.
By that token, I could take my experience of having been stoned by fans/passers-by/hangers-on? on leaving an NI game at Landsdowne, as an excuse to condemn the entire ROI support.


Really? That's not what Gspain relates. Then again, he was only at the game (as well as other, much more recent games at WP).


Now let me see. The last time NI played "Ireland" [sic] in Dublin was almost exactly 10 years ago. Assuming that that is the game you're referring to, remind me again of how that qualifies you to pontificate on the behaviour of NI fans (home and abroad) in the 21st Century?
I'm surprised you can even remember* it.

* - Speaking of which, can you remind me of the score that day?


http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/prelimi...ngs/index.html (Group Three )

I've explained my reasons.....there is no getting through to you.

However I will say that I am under no obligation to explain to you as to why I would not support NI. You imply that its beacuse I'm a bigot....fair enough, that's your you're opinion. However its what I perceive to be the bigotry of the vast majority of NI fans that causes my disike....

Enjoy finishing fourth in the group

[EalingGreen]

I've explained my reasons.....there is no getting through to you.

On the contrary, your Agenda is crystal clear

However I will say that I am under no obligation to explain to you as to why I would not support NI.

I do not expect you to support NI. Why should I, since they're not your country? But you take things a lot further than that i.e. you disparage NI for reasons which are quite clearly prejudiced. But go ahead, knock yourself out - maybe it will get you extra marks for Patriotism, or something

You imply that its beacuse I'm a bigot....fair enough, that's your you're opinion.

No, not "implying", stating.

However its what I perceive to be the bigotry of the vast majority of NI fans that causes my disike....

Not a big fan of Irony, then.

Enjoy finishing fourth in the group

Whether we finish first, last, or any point inbetween, I'm sure I will enjoy the experience. It goes with simply being a "football fan". You might try it for yourself.

[Gather round]

Don't be too hard on Den. He's disappointed after finishing 48th again.

[EalingGreen]

Don't be too hard on Den. He's disappointed after finishing 48th again.

Ouch!

[DeLorean]

Just doing a bit of research there on NI's chances of qualification. It an incredibly tight group really with every team outside of San Marino in with a realistic chance. To be honest I would fear for NI the way the group is panning out. Ye still have what would have been considered your toughest away matches at the start of the campaign to come, in Poland and Czech Rep. Having said that ye did get draws in Sweden and Denmark in the last campaign if memory serves, ye'll need similar results this time. Slovakia at home is a must-win I would think. The fixtures for the other sides is just as worrying I think. Slovenia have San Marino twice and Slovakia and the Czechs must play them again too. The Czechs have their final 3 matches at home also which will give them a good chance. Let's hope that San Marino will be a handful as the group goes on!!!

Think ye'll probably need 5 points from your final 3 games which is a tall enough order.

[Gather round]

San Marino are the worst team in the competition. They won't get a point.

Assuming that all other remaining games are home wins (only Slovakia have won away so far, against the Czechs), the final table will look as below. I've ignored all results against SMR to enable a comparison with other groups in estimating who'll make (or not) the play offs:

Slovakia 15
Slovenia 11
Czechia 11
Poland 10
Northern Ireland 10

in practice I think we actually need six more points, from two wins, to make the play offs. Slovakia are the clear favorite, but all four others have a chance.

[gspain]

Don't be too hard on Den. He's disappointed after finishing 48th again.

I would think the playoff losers would be entitled to claim 48th spot. So maybe 49th is more accurate. Indeed were Scunthorpe to win tonight then MK Dons could lay claim to 49th but congrats to Leeds on finishing in the top 50.

[Gather round]

I would think the playoff losers would be entitled to claim 48th spot. So maybe 49th is more accurate

No, they finished 48th in the League (ie fourth in its Division 3). Then (equal) third in another, separate competition

[seanfhear]

To be honest NI have done much better than I thought and might qualify.

I had my doubts about Worthington and Healys goal scoring run had to come to an end sometime.

So I would say that they have a better squad than I gave them credit for.

Can we please come back and make an All-Ireland team though

[Gather round]

No thanks. If you must merge with someone, why not England? They're rather better than we are.

[gustavo]

I don't see why people are so determined to get an All Ireland team, Anyone from the North who wants to play for us can if they want already so in some respects it's an All Ireland team already

[Gather round]

I don't see why people are so determined to get an All Ireland team, Anyone from the North who wants to play for us can if they want already so in some respects it's an All Ireland team already

It isn't enough for some people that the South can pick players from outside the country; they want to stop the other country having a team. They're ****stirrers, basically.

[seanfhear]

The clue is in Northern Ireland and the Rest of Ireland + Donegal (because thats in the Northern part of Ireland as well)

Its not really that long ago that the RoI foolishly separated itself from the Irish FA.

It will happen some day its only a matter of time.

[Den Perry]

Disgraceful antics from NI international Kyle Lafferty today

[Gather round]

The clue is in Northern Ireland and the Rest of Ireland + Donegal (because thats in the Northern part of Ireland as well)

Sean, let me explain this to you slowly. We don't want to merge with your football team. Regardless of how good or bad its record, or what you want to call it, or how many English, Scots, Derrymen or others you persuade to play for it. Like I said, if you want a merger, the English are a much better bet.

Its not really that long ago that the RoI foolishly separated itself from the Irish FA

It's almost a century ago. Not so foolish- it's international football, you're a different country.

It will happen some day its only a matter of time

Stop sh it-stirring and concentrate on qualifying a bit more often.

Disgraceful antics from NI international Kyle Lafferty today

Yes, so what? I daresay the Scottish FA will discipline him for it. And if Rangers are finally fed up with him, they could always transfer to Leeds. He's already got goals in English Division 3.

[seanfhear]

Sean, let me explain this to you slowly. We don't want to merge with your football team. Regardless of how good or bad its record, or what you want to call it, or how many English, Scots, Derrymen or others you persuade to play for it. Like I said, if you want a merger, the English are a much better bet.

It's almost a century ago. Not so foolish- it's international football, you're a different country.



Stop sh it-stirring and concentrate on qualifying a bit more often.



Yes, so what? I daresay the Scottish FA will discipline him for it. And if Rangers are finally fed up with him, they could always transfer to Leeds. He's already got goals in English Division 3.

On a neutral point in my original post I did mention that NI had a better squad than I had given them credit for proven by their good performance in the group so far.

In fairness that was a bit embarassing from Lafferty today.
He is only following in the footsteps of footballers from all countries.
With reguard to players behaviour and respect for the ref then Football should follow Rugby union though I believe that their standards are dropping in recent times also.

I did not see all of the Chelsea v Barcelona game but if football players think the can get away with that type of behavior then they will kill the game of football.

[Den Perry]

Sean, let me explain this to you slowly. We don't want to merge with your football team. Regardless of how good or bad its record, or what you want to call it, or how many English, Scots, Derrymen or others you persuade to play for it. Like I said, if you want a merger, the English are a much better bet.



It's almost a century ago. Not so foolish- it's international football, you're a different country.



Stop sh it-stirring and concentrate on qualifying a bit more often.



Yes, so what? I daresay the Scottish FA will discipline him for it. And if Rangers are finally fed up with him, they could always transfer to Leeds. He's already got goals in English Division 3.

So what? Its a football forum and I am passing comment on a football related matter.On the subject of transferring to Leeds, I think it would be a bad move for Lafferty because he probably wouldn't make the starting eleven