Northern Ireland

[Poor Student]

I don't mind stating publicly that I would like to support the ROI team in the given circumstances, were it not for the double-dealing of the FAI directly impinging upon my own team's prospects.
That loud enough for you?

You wouldn't be the first person to support the ROI team in spite of the FAI.

To paraphrase Mo from the Simpsons, I wish Northern Ireland well in that I wish them no specific harm. Personally, I'm still hoping Slovenia can qualify from the group.

[brendy_éire]

The point I am trying to get across is that I would prefer it if people from the Republic viewed the NI team without applying any political identity to it, instead simply regarding us as the football team of their closest neighbours.

But it's always going to be difficult not to view the NI team with an attached political identity when the existance of that entity is questioned.

Personally, I used to actively support the north, maybe even more so than the south.
I despise Celtic, but the Lennon thing turned me very much against the NI team, to the extent that I wanted them to get thrashed in every game they played.

Recently I've gone to a few NI games with the intention of supporting NI (although I refuse to go into the stand for GSTQ), but find myself wanting them to lose, and being disappointed when they win.

I guess I'd like to think I'm in the (a) catergory, as they're a team of Irishmen, but I think I'm actually in catergory (b) in that I fail to associate myself with the team in any real way. It just doesn't feel like 'my' team, whilst it does feel like 'my' team when I'm at a southern game.

[geysir]

I'd have no problem wishing them well as in get a result against any other team and getting through their group to the last 16. It's only natural. Whatever díckheads are in the IFA wouldn't bother me in the least.
It was great to watch their progress in the 82WC.



.

[EalingGreen]

You wouldn't be the first person to support the ROI team in spite of the FAI.

I support NI in spite of the IFA. I cannot support ROI because of the FAI. The distinction is important.

[ifk101]

I support NI in spite of the IFA. I cannot support ROI because of the FAI. The distinction is important.

I suppose the FAI's one saving grace is that it's not the most incompetent football association in existence.

[EalingGreen]

But it's always going to be difficult not to view the NI team with an attached political identity when the existance of that entity is questioned.

Difficult for some people, not difficult for other people, not relevant for yet more people.
I accept that it is important to you, as is your right. But in the end, it is only important to you because you make it so.

Personally, I used to actively support the north, maybe even more so than the south.
I despise Celtic, but the Lennon thing turned me very much against the NI team, to the extent that I wanted them to get thrashed in every game they played.

Exactly which aspect(s) of the Lennon thing was it which caused you to change your views so much? Were you at the Norway game where he was booed? Or any of the subsequent games he played for NI? (Genuine questions, btw)

Recently I've gone to a few NI games with the intention of supporting NI (although I refuse to go into the stand for GSTQ), but find myself wanting them to lose, and being disappointed when they win.

If I've got this correct, before the game you want NI to win, but by the end you want them to lose. What is it that transpires in between which accounts for this transformation?
And re GSTQ, I'm no fan of it being played at our games, either (I find it's a good time to visit the bog - no queue - for a last-minute slash, as it happens).
However, when I used to attend Ireland rugby games at Lansdowne, my attitude to The Soldiers Song was always: "Stand Up, Shut Up, Now Enjoy the bloody Game!" (That is, I refused to let it be important to me)

I guess I'd like to think I'm in the (a) catergory, as they're a team of Irishmen, but I think I'm actually in catergory (b) in that I fail to associate myself with the team in any real way. It just doesn't feel like 'my' team, whilst it does feel like 'my' team when I'm at a southern game.

Obviously I regret that you cannot feel able to join the GAWA, but it's a free world; imo people may choose which football team they support, for whatever reason, or none.

[EalingGreen]

I suppose the FAI's one saving grace is that it's not the most incompetent football association in existence.

Hmmm, not sure. I could have sworn you were ahead of us in the FIFA Incompetence Rankings? (It certainly wasn't the other FIFA Rankings...)

[ifk101]

Hmmm, not sure. I could have sworn you were ahead of us in the FIFA Incompetence Rankings?

You should be "supportive" of the FAI in that case

(It certainly wasn't the other FIFA Rankings...)

Enjoy your month in the sun EG. Milk it for all it's worth .

[Gather round]

I was suggesting that whether someone from the South likes to see the NI team do well or likes to see them crash and burn will probably have a lot to do with their interpretation of who/what the team represents

As Ealing says, there's another (likely quite large) category of fans in the Republic: those who will treat NI broadly like any other team from Iceland to Istanbul, and not be that bothered about whose politics they represent? To be honest, it's this category I feel most comfortable with. The problem is that it can be a small step from 'support them because they're an Irish team' to 'let's have just one Irish team'...

Likewise, many (if not all) Southern supporters of the rugby team would view the 15 rugby players as 'Irish' even though one or two probably only consider themselves 'Irish' when on a rugby field

Any player who has grown up and played schools, club, provincial rugby in NI almost certainly considers himself Irish. Perhaps British as well, the two aren't mutually exclusive

To paraphrase Mo from the Simpsons, I wish Northern Ireland well in that I wish them no specific harm. Personally, I'm still hoping Slovenia can qualify from the group

Still a real possibility: if everyone beats SMR twice and all other eight remaining games are home wins, Slovenia would have 11 points- level with the Czechs, and ahead of us and Poland on 10.

Recently I've gone to a few NI games with the intention of supporting NI (although I refuse to go into the stand for GSTQ), but find myself wanting them to lose, and being disappointed when they win

I'm a bit puzzled by this. Why do you want them to lose? Something that happened during the games? What makes you change your mind each time?

As for GSTQ, I would just ignore it, like many of us do.

I suppose the FAI's one saving grace is that it's not the most incompetent football association in existence

Aye, like Hitler and Stalin's saving grace was not murdering as many people as Mao? Not much of a recommendation, that.

[brendy_éire]

Difficult for some people, not difficult for other people, not relevant for yet more people.
I accept that it is important to you, as is your right. But in the end, it is only important to you because you make it so.

True, but it's probably important for millions like me.

Exactly which aspect(s) of the Lennon thing was it which caused you to change your views so much? Were you at the Norway game where he was booed? Or any of the subsequent games he played for NI? (Genuine questions, btw)

No, wasn't at the game or subsequent ones where he played. I do realise it was the work of a few, but I thought we were past that. It maybe annoyed me more than it didn't matter what his religion was to these people, it was because he played for Celtic (also annoys me that Boruc got so much attention the other week). It was a minority, but a big enough minority to make me feel alienated from the NI team. (BTW, I'm aware of the Celtic-fest that sometimes surrounds southern games, which is why I'm reluctant to travel to away games)

If I've got this correct, before the game you want NI to win, but by the end you want them to lose. What is it that transpires in between which accounts for this transformation?

I'm a bit puzzled by this. Why do you want them to lose? Something that happened during the games? What makes you change your mind each time?

I think it's a heart v head thing. I can sit here now and say that I want the north to qualify for the next WC, but come the next match I'm watching, I won't really. I will want them to lose.
I don't know what it is that stops me from supporting them. I'd guess that things I that I feel negatively about generally (NI flag*, the Windsor/Linfield connection, anthem, people cheering when the scores are announced and the south are losing, down to little things like people using the word 'Ulster' instead of 'NI') are associated with NI matches, and this can make me feel somewhat alienated from, and not entirely a part of, what NI team represents.

Maybe how I feel will change someday. Maybe not. But I'll keep trying.

(* I am aware that this is not realistically going to change, and it doesn't actually bother me that it's used at NI matches)

[Gather round]

also annoys me that Boruc got so much attention the other week

To be honest it irritates me too. I accept a lot of NI fans support Rangers (as I'll admit I did as I kid until I realised the Old Firm's wider malign influence), but I wish they'd leave it at home for international games.

I think it's a heart v head thing. I can sit here now and say that I want the north to qualify for the next WC, but come the next match I'm watching, I won't really. I will want them to lose. I don't know what it is that stops me from supporting them. I'd guess that things I that I feel negatively about generally (NI flag*, the Windsor/Linfield connection, anthem, people cheering when the scores are announced and the south are losing, down to little things like people using the word 'Ulster' instead of 'NI') are associated with NI matches, and this can make me feel somewhat alienated from, and not entirely a part of, what NI team represents

Fair points. Although normally I favor the underdog team when NI aren't playing, I do sometimes instinctively find myself relieved when the Republic slip up, and to a lesser extent Scotland.

[geysir]

Don't most NI fans just cheer England at the WC or EC finals?

[Gather round]

Don't most NI fans just cheer England at the WC or EC finals?

Not at the last one

I certainly don't (unless, as above, they're clearly the underdog). Obviously a proportion do, but I'd be surprised if it was a majority.

[DeLorean]

also annoys me that Boruc got so much attention the other week). It was a minority, but a big enough minority to make me feel alienated from the NI team.

To be honest it irritates me too. I accept a lot of NI fans support Rangers (as I'll admit I did as I kid until I realised the Old Firm's wider malign influence), but I wish they'd leave it at home for international games.

To be fair the Republic fans are just as guilty in this respect. Remember when they were booing "Lovenkrands" in a friendly match...and it turned out not to be him, muppets!!

The way I look at it there are a lot of idiots in the world. At a guess I would say the ratio would be 5:1 in favour of non-idiots (admittedly not much time dedicated to coming up with that result). That still leaves a nice few thousand at a football match letting the side down.

[EalingGreen]

No, wasn't at the game or subsequent ones where he [Neil Lennon] played. I do realise it was the work of a few, but I thought we were past that. It maybe annoyed me more than it didn't matter what his religion was to these people, it was because he played for Celtic (also annoys me that Boruc got so much attention the other week). It was a minority, but a big enough minority to make me feel alienated from the NI team. (BTW, I'm aware of the Celtic-fest that sometimes surrounds southern games, which is why I'm reluctant to travel to away games)

I respect the sincerity of your posts on this subject. The whole Lennon affair was obviously alienating for a whole lot of potential NI fans like yourself, as well as the player himself (obviously), which I greatly regret and deplore.
Sadly, the general impression has formed, prompted as I see it by the teams detractors, via a lazy or biased media, that "the NI fans hounded out Lennon because he was a Catholic/Nationalist/Celt etc"
Yet there is an additional story behind the whole business, which never gets told. I wasn't at the original Norway game where Lennon was booed (his first NI cap since signing for Celtic), but my brothers were.
The booing was by their reckoning the work of a small minority (10%?) of the crowd, almost all congregated on the Kop. No-one can verify this, but there is a strong suspicion that these were Rangers/Linfield fans, who may not even have been regular NI fans, but who had turned up especially for this game.
In a 3/4 empty stadium, for a game where we were getting humped by a mediocre Norway team, there was virtually no atmosphere, so the boo-boys' efforts were all the more amplified (this was the Sammy McIlroy era, when we were utter sh1te).
And I suspect McIlroy mishandled the situation, by substituting NL at half time, rather than marching the whole team out together for the 2nd half and facing the boo-boys down.
Anyhow, after an otherwise meaningless and crap game, the booing got all the attention from the media (understandable, I suppose, but no less annoying).
However, what wasn't reported was what happened next. For NL continued to play for NI, including the next home game v Ukraine. In my own case, the chance to show my support for him was the deciding factor in my deciding to fly back to Belfast for that game.
Which I'm glad I did, because the boo boys were now nowhere to be seen/heard - in fact, NL was cheered everytime he touched the ball.
Was this reported in the Press? Was it fcuk!
Anyhow, the whole thing was beginning to die down, until another episode occurred. Some Scotland-based NI fans went to an NI U-21 game (in Scotland) soon after. They bought some NL masks, and had a banner made up, stating "NI FANS SUPPORT NEIL LENNON".
The following weekend, the Scottish News of the World printed a photo of them with their banner, but deliberately cropped to exclude the "SUPPORT NEIL LENNON" part, under the headline "Neil Lennon Hate Mob".
Of course, the fans involved immediately threatened legal action, until the NOTW backed down and agreed to pay a five figure sum to a charity of the fans choice. However, they still made no effort to apologise properly and their "Correction" was tucked away where no-one would see it, weeks after the damage was done.
Anyhow, the general furore started to subside again, NL was continuing to play for NI without any fuss, when the next and final episode occurred. After McIlroy decided to make NL captain for a game, somebody in a housing estate in Rathcoole (I think) decided to phone a (non-coded) "Death Threat" to an NI newspaper. The whole thing blew up again, and on police advice, NL (understandably) decided it all wasn't "worth the candle" anymore.
Which is all that was needed for the media to dust off their "NI Fans threaten the life of their Star Player" headlines etc.
All this despite the fact that no-one has any idea whether the phone caller was even an NI fan.
Nor was there anything like the same fuss soon after when eg someone phoned a "death threat" directly to the Dublin Hotel Room of the Captain of the Australian International Rules Team, on the eve of their game with Ireland.
Do Chelsea fans still get tarnished since eg (so-called) Chelsea fans issued death-threats to refereee Anders Frisk after a Barcelona game, even in Sweden itself?
Do England fans still have to apologise for some racist sending a live bullet in the post to the home of Cyrille Regis, for "daring" to be black and play for his country?
Indeed, do Neil Lennon's own words, at an IFA "Football For All" Awards Night in 2007 ever get reported?
"Fans like Stewart [an award winner] are unsung heroes who have been brave enough to challenge sectarianism and who have actively created a more fun, safe and family orientated atmosphere at international games. [They] have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games the envy of fans across not only Europe but world football. I would personally like to thank them for efforts."
Now I'm not claiming everything in the garden is now rosy - far from it - but I honestly believe the sh1t we NI fans have had to take over this matter is not only a fraction of the true story, but far out of proportion from what happens in football (and life) every day of the week.

I think it's a heart v head thing. I can sit here now and say that I want the north to qualify for the next WC, but come the next match I'm watching, I won't really. I will want them to lose.
I don't know what it is that stops me from supporting them. I'd guess that things I that I feel negatively about generally (NI flag*, the Windsor/Linfield connection, anthem, people cheering when the scores are announced and the south are losing, down to little things like people using the word 'Ulster' instead of 'NI') are associated with NI matches, and this can make me feel somewhat alienated from, and not entirely a part of, what NI team represents.

Fair comment.

Maybe how I feel will change someday. Maybe not. But I'll keep trying.

Here's hoping.

[geysir]

The booing was by their reckoning the work of a small minority (10%?) of the crowd, almost all congregated on the Kop. No-one can verify this, but there is a strong suspicion that these were Rangers/Linfield fans, who may not even have been regular NI fans, but who had turned up especially for this game.
In a 3/4 empty stadium,

Not 1/2 full as reported?
Seeing as you have quoted Lennon elsewhere, why don't we let his his account and his Fathers stand?
Death threats made me put family before football

"From the moment I went on to that pitch to play in the green and white colours of Northern Ireland, I was the target of an unremitting chorus of boos, jeers, catcalls and insults. In a half-empty stadium, the noise seemed to amplify and at times it seemed as though it was the only sound to be heard"
"It was premeditated by part of a hard core of the support which could not stomach seeing a Catholic Celtic player turning out for "their" country."

for a game where we were getting humped by a mediocre Norway team, there was virtually no atmosphere, so the boo-boys' efforts were all the more amplified (this was the Sammy McIlroy era, when we were utter sh1te).

Lennon was being booed even before the humping began.
The NI fans were cheering their team, then would stop to boo Lennon.

And I suspect McIlroy mishandled the situation, by substituting NL at half time, rather than marching the whole team out together for the 2nd half and facing the boo-boys down.

Belfast tele sportswriter
"It's little consolation that so many of the genuine home fans tried manfully but unsuccessfully to drown out the boring, predictable and unoriginal chants. The currency of a new 21stcentury Northern Ireland took a severe battering."

Neil´s Da
"But I would not go to Windsor Park last Wednesday night. Neil had far too much pressure already on his shoulders. There was talk pre-match of death threats, of him being singled out for special abuse. He did not want me to have to sit through that, to listen to all of that hatred.".
´ Instead, he waited at home. Inside the ground, he had friends placed at strategic positions. Every part of the stadium was covered by a network of mobile phones.
The constant messages they relayed back to the Lennon household in Lurgan made the father of the Northern Ireland International glad he was not there, to hear and watch as his son was treated to the modern day equivalent of human bear baiting.
A lot has been made in certain quarters about the support that Lennon got from the decent, and there are many, Northern Ireland supporters. But talk about the Billy Boo Boys and the sectarian chanters being a small vocal minority is nothing short of a disgraceful attempt to sanitise and distort the picture still being conveyed of football in the North.

Anyhow, after an otherwise meaningless and crap game, the booing got all the attention from the media (understandable, I suppose, but no less annoying).

Annoying ???
Lennon was already in the headlines as death threats were daubbed on walls, newspaper headlines,even some of the politicians were getting in on the pre game build up. It was only natural that the NI highest profile player getting roundly booed would hit the headlines, it would have been a major shock if any journalist who was there, was not sickened to their stomach.

Anyhow, the general furore started to subside again, NL was continuing to play for NI without any fuss, when the next and final episode occurred. After McIlroy decided to make NL captain for a game, somebody in a housing estate in Rathcoole (I think) decided to phone a (non-coded) "Death Threat" to an NI newspaper. The whole thing blew up again, and on police advice, NL (understandably) decided it all wasn't "worth the candle" anymore.
Which is all that was needed for the media to dust off their "NI Fans threaten the life of their Star Player" headlines etc.

There was no evidence that it was a football fan at all.

Please do not minimise the effect or reality of the death threat on Lennon at that time. He was a target for sick twisted minds as has been amply demonstrated time and time again. It seemed real enough to Neil at the time
"We were having our pre-match meal when two officers from the newly named Police Service of Northern Ireland arrived.
As soon as I heard there had been a phone call, I knew what it was and my heart sank into my boots.
I knew I was 'fair game' for any madman wanting to make a point and I had anticipated someone trying to get publicity for their 'cause' after it was announced that I would captain the side.
But I had not thought it would go as far as someone threatening my life."

Now I'm not claiming everything in the garden is now rosy - far from it - but I honestly believe the sh1t we NI fans have had to take over this matter is not only a fraction of the true story, but far out of proportion from what happens in football (and life) every day of the week.

The NI fans deserved every bit of the flak then, good fans suffered as well.

[SolitudeRed]

Just my thoughts on the issue but to me NI fans generally have a bigger thing about disliking the RoI. Most NI fans that I know would give off about them and would claim to support whoever they are playing often hear them slaging Gibson as well!

Generally RoI fans from the South wouldn't get too worked up about NI, I remember watching a Republic match in a bar down here and it came up on the screen that NI had scored in their game and people started cheering! somehow I doubt you would get that happening in a bar in East Belfast if the Republic had scored.

[Predator]

A large proportion of N.I. fans come across as extremely political - I know some people who were at Windsor Park for an under-age game and they felt they couldn't say their children's names because their names were Irish. Also, the N.I. fans were cheering when England scored, which is strange to say the least. They bring it upon themselves really and I agree fully with geysir about the Neil Lennon comments.

[Gather round]

Just my thoughts on the issue but to me NI fans generally have a bigger thing about disliking the RoI. Most NI fans that I know would give off about them and would claim to support whoever they are playing often hear them slaging Gibson as well!

Fair enough. I think there are clear reasons for this. But it hasn't always been thus, and may change again. If- for example- the two FAs- agreed not to pick players from each other's area, or at least not if they'd already played for the other's youth and U-21 teams

Not going to happen, you may say, and I'd probably agree. But if not, you can hardly be surprised at the stick.

I think Gibson's a good player and capable of establishing in both the English Prem and your midfield, by the way. But as he didn't want to play for us, bye bye.

Generally RoI fans from the South wouldn't get too worked up about NI, I remember watching a Republic match in a bar down here and it came up on the screen that NI had scored in their game and people started cheering! somehow I doubt you would get that happening in a bar in East Belfast if the Republic had scored

Hmm. They do get animated sometimes, though- such as every time someone starts a thread here suggesting an all-Ireland team (which of course basically means the NI team gets abolished or swallowed). There's always plenty of interest, not of all of it from the usual wind-ups.

Aren't there any bars left in the Short Strand? Nobody there, or in the unionist areas of east Belfast, is suggesting the Republic of Ireland loses its team. There's an obvious difference...

[Gather round]

A large proportion of N.I. fans come across as extremely political

See above for possible explanation?

I know some people who were at Windsor Park for an under-age game and they felt they couldn't say their children's names because their names were Irish

To be honest, they sound a bit oversensitive. Or maybe they're pulling your leg?

Also, the N.I. fans were cheering when England scored, which is strange to say the least. They bring it upon themselves really

Not sure what you're referring here, but the implication that NI fans tend to support England is wrong. Of course, as a largely successful country who to tend to qualify, and whose leagues dominate the local media, they have some fans in NI- but then the same applies in the Republic too. For example, RTE's advertising rates for England games are much higher than for any other foreign country. Because they attract a bigger audience (source: Ken Early, Newstalk 106, Dublin).

The NI fans deserved every bit of the flak then, good fans suffered as well

I hesitated before replying to this (when the intimidation of Lennon happened, I thought immediately that it would damage local football for years to come, and that still stands). I certainly don't downplay its effect then. But while I personally don't claim for one moment to have 'suffered', I think the flak was over the top. Contrary to what Lennon's father said, NI fans generally have not tried to sanitise- we accept where intimidation and prejudice existed and have tried to overcome it.