Northern Ireland

[Gather round]

However the Neil Lennon saga turned me off them. I personally have no time for Lennon but the way he was treated was disgusting. I couldn't give a toss about them now tbh

I can understand that, but hopefully we can convince you that things have changed for the better since?

Probably best if we didnt meet to be honest because all that nonsense about GSTQ in Croke Park would come back and it would probably be 20 times worse given that it is football. It wouldnt probably overshadow the game itself...I personally, would love to go up to Windsor for an away though. Would love to sample the atmosphere there. Seems top notch for the numbers. Fair play to you for that

Thanks. I'll admit to some worry about the next time we're drawn together, and for the game in Dublin in 2011.

The atmosphere and thus home advantage at Windsor can be exaggerated a bit. As one of the Cliftonville fans mentioned on another thread, many fans there are a long way from the pitch, and you could actually fit in a GAA pitch And although results have been consistently good through the last two series, we only won six matches of 23 in the five previous tournaments.

Wouldn't really mind how they do. If they win the World Cup, fine, if they lose their three group matches, fine

You're very sanguine. How would you feel if, say, Slovenia, Estonia or Latvia won it? Not even a little excited?

[Den Perry]

I supported them in '82 and '86, but after experiences at the Milk Cup and what went on in '93 I would support any other team (even Turkey) ahead of NI. I feel a little guilty towards Gather Round, because you seem a decent sort,but Ealing Green is another reason I would not support NI.

I would definitely support England ahead of NI. I know Gather Round referred to the Landsdowne Rd riots, but that was just a shower of bigots

On the subject of England, any English person I have come into contact with while we have been playing have always supported us (unless we are playing against them!!)

[Gather round]

I feel a little guilty towards Gather Round, because you seem a decent sort,but Ealing Green is another reason I would not support NI

Thanks mate I'm sure you'd get on well with the big man if you met?

I supported them in '82 and '86, but after experiences at the Milk Cup and what went on in '93 I would support any other team (even Turkey) ahead of NI.

I would definitely support England ahead of NI. I know Gather Round referred to the Landsdowne Rd riots, but that was just a shower of bigots

Do you mean the youth team from Cherry Orchard whose B&B got bricked in Coleraine? Obviously upsetting for the people involved, but it seems a wee bit harsh for wishing us to lose against just anyone. Nothing against Turkey btw, I lived there until I was two.

I think there were rather fewer people involved in the Milk Cup thing, than those who kicked it off against England in Lansdowne?

On the subject of England, any English person I have come into contact with while we have been playing have always supported us (unless we are playing against them!!)

Don't want to generalise too much, but I've known many England fans who do that. Although they tend to be shocked when I explain that often their good wishes aren't returned

[Den Perry]

Thanks mate I'm sure you'd get on well with the big man if you met?



Do you mean the youth team from Cherry Orchard whose B&B got bricked in Coleraine? Obviously upsetting for the people involved, but it seems a wee bit harsh for wishing us to lose against just anyone. Nothing against Turkey btw, I lived there until I was two.

I think there were rather fewer people involved in the Milk Cup thing, than those who kicked it off against England in Lansdowne?



Don't want to generalise too much, but I've known many England fans who do that. Although they tend to be shocked when I explain that often their good wishes aren't returned

No, it was actually with Stella Maris, and nothing as serious as a bricking, it was just the venom and spite displayed against an under 16 team because they were from the South....but hey, I'm probably generalising myself a bit now...no offence intended

[EalingGreen]

I supported them in '82 and '86, but after experiences at the Milk Cup and what went on in '93 I would support any other team (even Turkey) ahead of NI. I feel a little guilty towards Gather Round, because you seem a decent sort,but Ealing Green is another reason I would not support NI.

Thanks for the recognition, mate! And there was I, imagining I was only a mere "keyboard warrior", of absolutely no importance in the grand scheme of things...

I would definitely support England ahead of NI. I know Gather Round referred to the Landsdowne Rd riots, but that was just a shower of bigots

So you can ignore a gang of rioters at an actual match at Lansdowne Rd., but not another gang of would-be rioters in a housing estate in Coleraine (i.e. nowhere near a football match)?
I'm afraid you've got me confused there.
Any advice whether I and my fellow NI fans should use being stoned by locals as we exited Landsdowne after our game in 1978, as an excuse to wish the ROI team badly? Or was that just "a shower of bigots", to be ignored?

[Den Perry]

Thanks for the recognition, mate! And there was I, imagining I was only a mere "keyboard warrior", of absolutely no importance in the grand scheme of things...


So you can ignore a gang of rioters at an actual match at Lansdowne Rd., but not another gang of would-be rioters in a housing estate in Coleraine (i.e. nowhere near a football match)?
I'm afraid you've got me confused there.
Any advice whether I and my fellow NI fans should use being stoned by locals as we exited Landsdowne after our game in 1978, as an excuse to wish the ROI team badly? Or was that just "a shower of bigots", to be ignored?

I doubt very much if it was the "locals" that stoned you. The residents of that area only throw dinner parties and rugby balls...

[gspain]

I would wish them well and support them although it wouldn't even come close to following us.

I've gone up for a few recent games and the atmosphere is fantastic - well worth a visit.

They don't wish us well btw (in general) and see us as their main rivals. Windsor Park 1993 was blown out of all proportion. I was in the home end that night and couldn't believe the reaction when I got home the following day. There was certainly some disgusting sectarian stuff but i never felt in anyway threatened despite losing it when Alan McLoughlin scored THAT goal. Most of my friends and colleagues in Galway at the time who wouldn't be big football fans reckoned NI would lie down and let us win. This included the 2 guys in the back of my car going up. Many Danes think NI did lie down and let us equalise.

I plan on going to South Africa next year anyway. If we don't make it and they do I'll definitely be taking in some of their games.

[Gather round]

They don't wish us well btw (in general) and see us as their main rivals

Many Danes think NI did lie down and let us equalise.

I plan on going to South Africa next year anyway. If we don't make it and they do I'll definitely be taking in some of their games

I think our fans' relationship with you is roughly similar to yours with England. A big-little brother thing as I said up thread.

Relax, you have much more chance of seeing your boys in the finals than ours

I guess Denmark roll over and give in every time they play Sweden (actually I don't, but it's about as plausible)...

[EalingGreen]

I doubt very much if it was the "locals" that stoned you. The residents of that area only throw dinner parties and rugby balls...

I didn't think to ask whether they'd come far on the mission to lob stuff at us, strangely enough.

Then again, if I was minded to hold such events against other teams or their supporters, a minor detail like that would hardly put me off doing so.

How about you then, Den?

[Den Perry]

I didn't think to ask whether they'd come far on the mission to lob stuff at us, strangely enough.

Then again, if I was minded to hold such events against other teams or their supporters, a minor detail like that would hardly put me off doing so.

How about you then, Den?

you did refer to them as "locals" in your earlier post my friend

[Gather round]

you did refer to them as "locals" in your earlier post my friend

Den- I think we can assume Ealing meant 'Dubliners attending the game' rather than 'people who live in millionaire gated communities in Ballsbridge'. Let's not nitpick.

[holidaysong]

For someone from the South, it depends on how you view the team to be honest:

(a) The NI team represents Irish people who just happen to live in a different political jurisdiction to the one I live in (Irish here could include both RC's and Protestants, like the Irish rugby team does).

(b) The NI team is the national team of those in NI who identify themselves as British (they do after all use GSTQ, the British national anthem).

In case (a) I support the team, in case (b) I don't.

[EalingGreen]

Den- I think we can assume Ealing meant 'Dubliners attending the game' rather than 'people who live in millionaire gated communities in Ballsbridge'. Let's not nitpick.

Unless Mr. Perry prefers to "nitpick", so as to draw attention from my main point, which he still declines to address.

Namely, he uses a bunch of bigots in a sh1tty NI housing estate abusing some kids from a Dublin schoolboy team, as an excuse not to support the NI football team, despite the fact that this occurred at midnight, was nowhere near any football game and didn't involve any (identifiable) NI football fans.

Meanwhile, some English people travel with the England support all the way to Dublin for an England international, attend the game with them and proceed to wreck the joint, thereby causing the game to be called off. But that is insufficient excuse for DP to hold any hard feelings against the England football team.

Personally, I don't think it fair automatically to tar any team or its fans on account of the actions of a minority of thugs, especially those entirely unconnected with the team (which was why I quoted my own experience at Lansdowne).

It would appear, however, that Mr. Perry thinks otherwise.

Back to you, Den.

[EalingGreen]

For someone from the South, it depends on how you view the team to be honest:

(a) The NI team represents Irish people who just happen to live in a different political jurisdiction to the one I live in (Irish here could include both RC's and Protestants, like the Irish rugby team does).

(b) The NI team is the national team of those in NI who identify themselves as British (they do after all use GSTQ, the British national anthem).

In case (a) I support the team, in case (b) I don't.

Hmmm, I wonder how the likes of Sammy Clingan views the team he plays for so forcefully?

For as regards your Scenario (A), he would be quite entitled to play for the team representing the political jurisdiction which you live in, thereby getting round the "problem" of just happening to come from NI.

As for your Scenario (B), I doubt very much whether he "identifies [himself] as British"...

Maybe your view from the South is obstructed, so that you cannot see the existence of Scenario (C): Namely that the NI team is made up of people from NI who are happy to represent NI, simply because that is where they come from, irrespective of their own, their teammates' or their supporters' private political allegiances.

P.S. Your analogy with the Ireland rugby team in Scenario (A) overlooks the fact that they use "The Soldiers' Song" and Tricolour as their "national" anthem and flag, despite some of the Ireland team being "British" rather than "Irish" - at least when it comes to such identifying political symbols etc. Perhaps the next time you look to the North, you might see more clearly if you use both eyes, not just one?

[SkStu]

out of interest EG, and apologies if you have already answered this, would you be shouting for the Republic of Ireland team at South Africa in the event NI didnt make it?

[EalingGreen]

out of interest EG, and apologies if you have already answered this, would you be shouting for the Republic of Ireland team at South Africa in the event NI didnt make it?

No, not since the FAI unilaterally reneged, after 50 years of happy operation, on the Gentlemens' Agreement* with the IFA, whereby both Associations pledged not to pick players from the "others" jurisdiction.
Which is not the same as saying I wouldn't be pleased on a personal basis for the Republic's fans, who seem to me to be amongst the best on the international scene.

This btw is somewhat different from an earlier World Cup experience in Italia 90. I went out to watch that tournament along with two Scottish mates, becoming an "unofficial" member of the Tartan Army along the way.
Then when the Jocks exited the tournament predictably early(!), I decided to stay on when they went back home.
Being a Spurs fan living in London, I might have followed England from this stage (I went to Bologna for their game with Belgium), but tbh there was so much hassle with hooliganism etc, that I had no appetite for it.
Meanwhile, I was very struck by a minor incident where I saw two guys from NI who just happened to be in my hotel, go up to a group of ROI fans and congratulate them on qualifying for the 2nd Phase.
After that small act of sportsmanship, I decided to tag along with the ROI fans, having a whale of a time in the process. Indeed, I actually got to attend the Romania game in Genoa, which was a mighty occasion, before my funds finally ran out and I had to return home.
So it's nothing personal (you bunch of cnuts! )

* - An Agreement which ironically was requested by the FAI

[holidaysong]

Maybe your view from the South is obstructed, so that you cannot see the existence of Scenario (C): Namely that the NI team is made up of people from NI who are happy to represent NI, simply because that is where they come from, irrespective of their own, their teammates' or their supporters' private political allegiances.

P.S. Your analogy with the Ireland rugby team in Scenario (A) overlooks the fact that they use "The Soldiers' Song" and Tricolour as their "national" anthem and flag, despite some of the Ireland team being "British" rather than "Irish" - at least when it comes to such identifying political symbols etc. Perhaps the next time you look to the North, you might see more clearly if you use both eyes, not just one?

For someone from the South though, scenario (c) won't really have an effect on whether they support the NI team or not. Indeed, I'm not denying that scenario (c) exists. However, I wasn't arguing for viewing the NI team as either (a) or (b), instead I was suggesting that whether someone from the South likes to see the NI team do well or likes to see them crash and burn will probably have a lot to do with their interpretation of who/what the team represents.

I don't see why the flag and anthem of the rugby team are relevant for my analogy. The analogy here had to do with scenario (a) whereby someone from the South might regard the NI players as being 'Irish' (RC & Protestant Irish). Likewise, many (if not all) Southern supporters of the rugby team would view the 15 rugby players as 'Irish' even though one or two probably only consider themselves 'Irish' when on a rugby field.

[SkStu]

No, not since the FAI unilaterally reneged, after 50 years of happy operation, on the Gentlemens' Agreement* with the IFA, whereby both Associations pledged not to pick players from the "others" jurisdiction.
Which is not the same as saying I wouldn't be pleased on a personal basis for the Republic's fans, who seem to me to be amongst the best on the international scene.

This btw is somewhat different from an earlier World Cup experience in Italia 90. I went out to watch that tournament along with two Scottish mates, becoming an "unofficial" member of the Tartan Army along the way.
Then when the Jocks exited the tournament predictably early(!), I decided to stay on when they went back home.
Being a Spurs fan living in London, I might have followed England from this stage (I went to Bologna for their game with Belgium), but tbh there was so much hassle with hooliganism etc, that I had no appetite for it.
Meanwhile, I was very struck by a minor incident where I saw two guys from NI who just happened to be in my hotel, go up to a group of ROI fans and congratulate them on qualifying for the 2nd Phase.
After that small act of sportsmanship, I decided to tag along with the ROI fans, having a whale of a time in the process. Indeed, I actually got to attend the Romania game in Genoa, which was a mighty occasion, before my funds finally ran out and I had to return home.
So it's nothing personal (you bunch of cnuts! )

* - An Agreement which ironically was requested by the FAI

from that it sounds to me like you would (just not out loud)

[EalingGreen]

For someone from the South though, scenario (c) won't really have an effect on whether they support the NI team or not. Indeed, I'm not denying that scenario (c) exists. However, I wasn't arguing for viewing the NI team as either (a) or (b), instead I was suggesting that whether someone from the South likes to see the NI team do well or likes to see them crash and burn will probably have a lot to do with their interpretation of who/what the team represents.

Fair enough.

I don't see why the flag and anthem of the rugby team are relevant for my analogy.

Er, it was you who raised the topic of the Ireland rugby team and anthem etc...

The analogy here had to do with scenario (a) whereby someone from the South might regard the NI players as being 'Irish' (RC & Protestant Irish). Likewise, many (if not all) Southern supporters of the rugby team would view the 15 rugby players as 'Irish' even though one or two probably only consider themselves 'Irish' when on a rugby field.

I think I see what you're saying i.e. that someone from the South may either consider supporting NI out of a feeling of fellow "Irishness" or, conversely, decline to do so because he/she sees us as being a "British" team.
The point I am trying to get across is that I would prefer it if people from the Republic viewed the NI team without applying any political identity to it, instead simply regarding us as the football team of their closest neighbours.

[EalingGreen]

from that it sounds to me like you would (just not out loud)

I don't mind stating publicly that I would like to support the ROI team in the given circumstances, were it not for the double-dealing of the FAI directly impinging upon my own team's prospects.
That loud enough for you?