QuoteAs long as no blame goes the Liverpool fans way eh??Originally Posted by Macy
Scousers, blameless as always.
I would've thought ticketless fans getting to the ground was also a policing matter? However, I would agree that was also a contributing factor.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
As long as no blame goes the Liverpool fans way eh??
Scousers, blameless as always.
David Conn published a good piece in the Guardian, suggesting 8 questions that need answering, such as:
Who authorised the amending of junior policemen's statements to make it seem like the response was less chaotic?
Why?
Who took the CCTV video tapes from a locked room at SWFC?
Guess who was responsible for the investigation: West Midlands - the same force that fitted up the Birmingham Six and others. I'm not sure was it the serious crime unit which was later disbanded because of the sheer scale of its corruption.
No wonder the families are looking for justice.
I've already said that if the police are shown to have acted incompetently, that incompetence should be punished accordingly.
I can see your point about fans being to blame also, but I don't know what they could be charged with. The police accepted the responsibility of policing the game, and if they failed in that responsibility (and covered up that failure), they should be held accountable. I can't think of any parallel responsibility fans have (in a legal sense).
really really wanted to avoid this thread for fear of what i might say but certain comments have convinced me to add my thoughts.
The day Liverpool fans accept full responsibility for Heysel and partial responsility for Hillsborough will be the day i have sympathy for them.
Certain (ticketless) sections of their support charged the stiles at the CL final, ffs, leaving plenty of decent fans locked out. Disgraceful behaviour.
I can see your point (though I have never thought I needed to sympathise with every Liverpool fan, rather just the fans involved in Hillsborough), but aren't you kind of tarring all of them with the same brush?
Last edited by osarusan; 17/04/2009 at 8:56 AM.
This thread could go to a bad place.
(Sorry, I had 667-1 posts and I am VERY superstitious. Couldnt leave my count at that.)
That's the first time that accusation has ever been levelled at me, ever!!As long as no blame goes the Liverpool fans way eh??
Scousers, blameless as always.
No, I don't accept they were blameless, which is the unpalatable things I referred to in my first post. The bulk of the blame does go to the police. However, the ticketless fans who were trying to get in also share part of the blame, and it must have been the first dry semi ever the way knickers get in a twist at the mere mention of drunk fans causing problems.
Also the police's attitude has to be put in the context of the hooliganism of the time, and the fact this came a mere 4 years after Liverpool fans murdered 39 fans. There was a reason there was fences at the front.
There are elements of the story some of the campaigners are happy to airbrush from the story whilst calling for transparency of other people, but that doesn't get away from the fact that it would've been avoided with proper policing.
I would also share SkStu's sentiments around Heysel, whatever about my sympathy for those directly effected by Hillsborough. Liverpool FC, and Liverpool fans still do not accept responisbility for Heysel, and it does imo cloud the collective outpouring with regard to Hillsborough.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Celtic Played Liverpool in a friendly which was the first game they played after Hillsborough, previous to that I cannot say there would have been much of a bond, but since then there seems to be.
This thread was put up in memory of 96 humans who lost their lifes that day.As long as no blame goes the Liverpool fans way eh??
Scousers, blameless as always.
You should be a fcuking shamed of yourself you really should.
This thread was put up in memory of 96 humans who lost their lifes that day not to argue the rights or wrongs of the day or for that matter Heysel. Again you should be shamed of yourself you really should.
You did not say that when people were talking about the behaviour of the police in the thread. If you only wanted it as a tribute you would have replied to those people who were discussing the polices role in this. Double standards and what the guys have said does not take away from the pain or add to the pain that those who died or survived this tragedy.
Last edited by NeilMcD; 17/04/2009 at 2:39 PM.
In Trap we trust
If there's to be further inquiries, and ultimately meaningful justice for the 96, there has to be complete transparency on all sides. You can't just write out elements that don't suit LFC.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
I don't agree with the comments, but instead of just having a go at the people why not try to prove them wrong? Whilst I don't agree with the comments, you took no offence to people having a go at the police before. I believe the police are almost exclusively to blame - and no blame goes to Liverpool fans - but if people start blaming the police, then obviously others will disagree and start to have a go at the fans, considering this is a forum with fans of many different clubs. If you want to discredit people, then you should do so instead of just throwing your eyes up at them.
Anyway, here's a very well researched document on the various mistruths of Hillsborough (pdf document):
http://www.hfdinfo.com/
http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/4HFDCon...nsequences.pdf
http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/8HFDCombined.pdf
My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method, is love. I love you Sheriff Truman.
any loss of life is a sad thing, undoubtedly and while i do feel sorry for the 96 people who died that day and the impact this has had on their families i object utterly to the coat-tailing of the Liverpool fans in general.
These same Liverpool fans who are responsible for Heysel, Hillsborough itself (to some degree), storming the gates at the CL final and singing the Munich song (im not a ManU fan). All this and we are supposed to allow them some sort of vicarious sympathy? Please.
Fans of the same team, but not (all) the same fans. I agree that there is no need for vicarious sympathy but in your post there seems to be vicarious guilt.These same Liverpool fans who are responsible for Heysel, Hillsborough itself (to some degree), storming the gates at the CL final and singing the Munich song (im not a ManU fan). All this and we are supposed to allow them some sort of vicarious sympathy? Please.
Liverpool fans were responsible for Heysel. The events at the CL final in 2007 were 22 years later, the fan base would have been completely different and a lot more geographically diluted. Besides, the stadium was woefully poor and the police did a poor job in that regard too. That doesn't take anything away from the disgraceful behaviour of some of the fans that night though. I'm sure many Liverpool fans were disgusted with the behaviour of some that night, particularly after Hillsborough.any loss of life is a sad thing, undoubtedly and while i do feel sorry for the 96 people who died that day and the impact this has had on their families i object utterly to the coat-tailing of the Liverpool fans in general.
These same Liverpool fans who are responsible for Heysel, Hillsborough itself (to some degree), storming the gates at the CL final and singing the Munich song (im not a ManU fan). All this and we are supposed to allow them some sort of vicarious sympathy? Please.
However, a lot of inquiries and all of the evidence suggests that Liverpool fans were in no way responsible for the events of Hillsborough. There is no video proof of this, and the BBC in their initial coverage of the event, didn't seem to think that fans were to blame.
The fact is, they weren't in any way. The Leppings Lane end was actually either below or around capacity that day, but due to the poor handling of the event by the police it turned into a disaster as the central terrace was way over capacity. Fans that day did nothing wrong, and the idea that plenty of ticketless fans got into the ground is unproved. The police were the ones that were almost exclusively to blame that day, and the fact that the myth persists that Liverpool fans were to blame in some way is disgraceful.
Last edited by jmurphyc; 17/04/2009 at 3:22 PM.
My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method, is love. I love you Sheriff Truman.
Osa and jmurphyc, all decent Bohs fans are generally tarred with the same brush after what happened in Derry with a tiny group of our support and due to a few mindless schooligans. Thats life. I am just applying the same standards here. (Osarusan, im not sure what you mean by my vicarious guilt?)
What about the Munich song, often heard loud and clear at Pool/United games? That stinks of double standards to me.
Im going to take back my comment about partial responsibility for Hillsborough, as that is somewhat unfair. It was mostly the fault of the police.
Well, I can't be sure, but I think that the people who sing the Munich song at United games are a minority. Most of the fans don't condone their behaviour, but at the same time more should be done to stop it and the club really should actively do something about it such as banning the perpetrators for life. The mocking of the loss of life in any way is absolutely sickening, irrespective of rivalries.
That's fair enough. I didn't mean to say that you saying so was disgraceful, merely the fact that the cover up of the event and spreading of mistruths about Hillsborough has made it difficult for many to know any better.
My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method, is love. I love you Sheriff Truman.
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