Which players in your opinion got too many or too few senior international caps?

**bennocelt** · 08/04/2009, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by jbyrne

mcgrath squeezed every ounce out of his international career. after he retired from the international team in 97 he played all of 12 more club games. i was at his testimonial where he could only appear as a sub so badly was he suffering from injuries

did you read my post! the point is that McGrath was getting MOM performances at THAT time - hence he was ready for the Macedonia game - I know he wouldn't have played on too long after that but the point is a manager should use the best thats available and Harte in CD was proven not to be and badly so, McGrath even to play in one game for us wouldnt have been worse than Harte at that time

**jbyrne** · 08/04/2009, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

did you read my post! the point is that McGrath was getting MOM performances at THAT time - hence he was ready for the Macedonia game - I know he wouldn't have played on too long after that but the point is a manager should use the best thats available and Harte in CD was proven not to be and badly so, McGrath even to play in one game for us wouldnt have been worse than Harte at that time

if mcgrath was still the best option he would have been picked. its the managers opinion that counts and god bless your memory if you can remember that mcgrath was actually fit enough for those matches you say harte replaced him for

edit. just came accross this article. it appears that he was actually injured for the two games you refer to:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/r...t-1267698.html

**bennocelt** · 08/04/2009, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by jbyrne

if mcgrath was still the best option he would have been picked. its the managers opinion that counts and god bless your memory if you can remember that mcgrath was actually fit enough for those matches you say harte replaced him for

jesus h chriss - yeah cause football is just like that!!!!! We are talking about Mick Macca here you know

And yes i do remember cause a) I am a big McGrath fan and b) i cant get that terrible header out of my head!!!!!
Football can be funny like that - some of us can be cynical to the end and have very long memories, very long ones!

**jbyrne** · 08/04/2009, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

jesus h chriss - yeah cause football is just like that!!!!! We are talking about Mick Macca here you know

And yes i do remember cause a) I am a big McGrath fan and b) i cant get that terrible header out of my head!!!!!
Football can be funny like that - some of us can be cynical to the end and have very long memories, very long ones!

refer to my edited post for reasons why he was not in the two squads you refer to. he personally agreed he was not fit enough to play romania and pulled out with an achilles injury just before macedonia

**fergalr** · 08/04/2009, 10:35 PM

Back to Irwin.

As far as my faulty memory goes, his lowish cap total was not just down to McCarthy. He could have been brought into the senior squad earlier by Charlton and could/should haven been on the plane to Italia 90. Four years later and he could not get in the team for the 2nd round defeat to Holland. I was never of the opinion that Phelan was a better left back nor was Garry Kelly a better right back than Dennis.

**Superhoops** · 09/04/2009, 6:44 AM

Originally Posted by fergalr

Back to Irwin.

As far as my faulty memory goes, his lowish cap total was not just down to McCarthy. He could have been brought into the senior squad earlier by Charlton and could/should haven been on the plane to Italia 90. Four years later and he could not get in the team for the 2nd round defeat to Holland. I was never of the opinion that Phelan was a better left back nor was Garry Kelly a better right back than Dennis.

Denis Irwin had not even been capped by the time the 1990 WC finals were played. Although he had been playing well for Oldham at the time and really only came into prominence in the FA Cup semi final games that April against ManU., I don't think at the time he was ahead of Morris or Staunton and even though Chris Hughton was coming to the end of his career, he probably deserved his squad place ahead of Irwin.

In 1994 WCF, Irwin played in the first 2 games against Italy and Mexico. I may be wrong, but I thought he was injured for the game aganst Norway and was replaced by Gary Kelly, who then held onto his place against Holland.

**jbyrne** · 09/04/2009, 7:45 AM

Originally Posted by Superhoops

In 1994 WCF, Irwin played in the first 2 games against Italy and Mexico. I may be wrong, but I thought he was injured for the game aganst Norway and was replaced by Gary Kelly, who then held onto his place against Holland.

he was suspended. picked up a 2nd yellow for taking all of about 9 secs to take a throw in v mexico

**Superhoops** · 09/04/2009, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by jbyrne

he was suspended. picked up a 2nd yellow for taking all of about 9 secs to take a throw in v mexico

Good one. Knew there was something but could not remember what.

**Drumcondra 69er** · 09/04/2009, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Greenbod

I know he's judged now on his u-21 management job but you wouldn't say the above if you'd been around to see his 7 goals against Russia and Turkey in '74/'75. He deserved every cap he got and held the top scoring record for us for about 10 years before Stapleton passed him out. He was also very proud to represent his country.....

"Nothing means half as much as standing when the national anthem is playing, " Don reflects on his international career. "When I stood for the national anthem during my first game at home against Hungary, it was probably the biggest thing that I'll remember. It's what separates international football from club football. I think that's something I'll never forget."

Agree. He is a total disaster as a manger though and is a bit of an arse from all accounts, my old fella met him in Italy last week and said he was up his own hole and all.

Own Coyle was teh forst name that came to mind for me, I thought he should have gone to US '94 once Quinn was stopped from going, especially as CAs was carrying a knock. He could have given us something different.

Sheridan could have had more caps but he was one of the few that were in all of the 88, 90 and 94 squads (Thursday teaser, can anyone name the rest?).

Clint should still be in the squad, Trundle should have had a cap, Delap should have more caps for me given some that have played in midfield in recent years. Liam Lawrence should definitely have a cap by now, you could go on all day.....

**Drumcondra 69er** · 09/04/2009, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Royal rover

mark kennedy is one player i always thought should of got more caps - sheridan was pure class, i remember watching him against spain in dublin - we brought him on when we were 3.0 down - i couldn't understand why Jack didn't play him from the off - i think Brady could of got a few more as well - i would of loved to have seen him in euro 88 - keith o'neil would of been a great player apart from injury -
likewise mark kelly in the 80's - kevin o'callaghan was also a good player i remember him at millwall with sheringham and Cascarino

worst players in recent times who got a few caps
Gary Doherty
Jonathan douglas

Two match ban (reduced from 3 on appeal) and then injury put paid to that, there's a bit of a myth going on that Charlton shafted Brady out of playing in a major finals but a myth is all it is (probably due to the uncerimonious way he hauled him off against Germany in the friendly), by the time Italia 90 came round Brady was nearly permenantly injured and wasn't worth a place in the squad, Gary Waddock was the man to feel shafted that year if anyone.

Bit harsh on the Doc, gave his all and scored a few important goals.

**Drumcondra 69er** · 09/04/2009, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

as far as i can remember Mick the Pr said that Irwin had to prove himself - imagine Irwin having to do that!!!!! Thats why he wasnt to bothered afterwards playing for Maccarthy
Short end of careers to Irwin, Aldo, Mcgrath and Keane tx to Mick

Again that's not what actually happened, he brought Irwin on and told him to 'prove me wrong' for leaving him out. A bit of a tactless effort at a gee up maybe but totally different from telling him to prove himself.

More spin from the Man U anti MM mafia that story.

Keane's end is well documented already and Aldo and McGrath were well past their best, sometimes managers have to make harsh decision especially when it's with regard to old team mates that would have been friends. The fact that they'd have viewed McCarthy as a mate explains a degree of the biterness that Aldo and MCGarth felt when they were no longer needed. For the record I'd have brought Aldo on in that game referred to but he was well past his best at that stage.

**Drumcondra 69er** · 09/04/2009, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

And yes i do remember cause a) I am a big McGrath fan and b) i cant get that terrible header out of my head!!!!!
Football can be funny like that - some of us can be cynical to the end and have very long memories, very long ones!

In fairness, it wasn't a great header but Roy Keane's missed penalty in that game was just as damaging if not more so and no one ever seems to remember that. It was immaterial anyway as we came 2nd in the group and never got close to challenging for first.

**Superhoops** · 09/04/2009, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

......
Sheridan could have had more caps but he was one of the few that were in all of the 88, 90 and 94 squads (Thursday teaser, can anyone name the rest?)......

Packie Bonner
Kevin Moran
Paul McGrath
Ray Houghton
John Aldridge
Tony Cascarino
David Kelly

**Drumcondra 69er** · 09/04/2009, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Superhoops

Packie Bonner
Kevin Moran
Paul McGrath
Ray Houghton
John Aldridge
Tony Cascarino
David Kelly

Correct! It's usually Sheridan and Kelly that people struggle with to be honest.....

**Superhoops** · 09/04/2009, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Correct! It's usually Sheridan and Kelly that people struggle with to be honest.....

Its an old question. People also usually include Steve Staunton.

**Drumcondra 69er** · 09/04/2009, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Superhoops

Its an old question. People also usually include Steve Staunton.

It is, think I first heard it just under 15 years ago!

**seanfhear** · 09/04/2009, 12:14 PM

Dave Langan but that was entirely through injuries.

**bennocelt** · 09/04/2009, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Again that's not what actually happened, he brought Irwin on and told him to 'prove me wrong' for leaving him out. A bit of a tactless effort at a gee up maybe but totally different from telling him to prove himself.

Keane's end is well documented already and Aldo and McGrath were well past their best, sometimes managers have to make harsh decision especially when it's with regard to old team mates that would have been friends. The fact that they'd have viewed McCarthy as a mate explains a degree of the biterness that Aldo and MCGarth felt when they were no longer needed. For the record I'd have brought Aldo on in that game referred to but he was well past his best at that stage.

yeah i understand all that - but sometimes you have to work with what you got - and if the choice is a very bad Harte and a knackered McGrath (who was still putting out the MOTM performances in the PL) i would go with McGrath. I think in Int football you should take every game as they come.
As for Aldo (correct me if Im wrong) but wasnt he still scoring the odd goal for tranmere - and again Lithuania 0 Ireland 0 in Lansdowne road

By the way what about Tommy Coyne - he actually went to the WC Cup and palyed against ItalY!!!!!!!!!!!! - or did i dream that?

**Superhoops** · 09/04/2009, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

...By the way what about Tommy Coyne - he actually went to the WC Cup and palyed against ItalY!!!!!!!!!!!! - or did i dream that?

He did. He also played against Mexico and Holland in those finals.

**Drumcondra 69er** · 09/04/2009, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

yeah i understand all that - but sometimes you have to work with what you got - and if the choice is a very bad Harte and a knackered McGrath (who was still putting out the MOTM performances in the PL) i would go with McGrath. I think in Int football you should take every game as they come.
As for Aldo (correct me if Im wrong) but wasnt he still scoring the odd goal for tranmere - and again Lithuania 0 Ireland 0 in Lansdowne road

By the way what about Tommy Coyne - he actually went to the WC Cup and palyed against ItalY!!!!!!!!!!!! - or did i dream that?

I know what you mean but sometimes you have to build for the future, had we qualified for WC 98 it's unlikely McGarth would have been fit so the logic would have been to try and blood a sucessor. Harte wasn't that bad at that stage as is being made out, naive and inexperienced yes but he was doing alright when given a chance a Leeds and was up to the level of making the PFA team of the year a couple of years later (albeit at full back). Centre half was a problem position for us at the time, all our big hitters in that position had grown old together (McGrath, Moran, O'Leary and McCarthy himself) and bar Babb no one was really coming through (see Kerneghan's caps total for proof). You could argue that a group in which we weren't looking like getting close to winning but had 2nd pretty much nailed on would be the ideal time to blood younger players.

And as I said I agree about Aldo and would have put him on myself. I also think McCarthy made a number of errors in that campaign due to his own inexperience. That said, we still finished as high as we ever had before or have since in a qualifying group bar Euro 88.

Dunno what relevance Tommy Coyne has to this discussion btw....