Budget: April 2009

[osarusan]

I am just asking the question. There is an argument that if you overly tax the rich well then you "punish" the wealth creators and as a result you take out innovation out of the economy. Its not a view I would subscribe too but its an interesting dilema that we have in a recession. I really do believe in the idea that in a boom you should tax more and in a recession you should have more stimulus measures.

Fair enough.

I see the point of the argument that over taxing the wealth creators will end up hindering the economy. I think that in this case it would need to be a pretty big increase to make people "leave" the economy who have stayed up until now.

Totally agree that the time to tax was a few years ago and not now.

[kingdom hoop]

Yeah and I suppose in general the higher the earner the more senior in years and therefore the less (to use a little business-book jargon) footloose they are, their 'feet' 'tied' to the country. I suppose you could criticise mammoth taxes on high-earners from the point of view of a lack of attractiveness to high quality workers from abroad coming here. But perhaps, from a regulatory competition perspective, that is offset by high taxes in many jurisdictions at the moment.

I suppose the nub of Neil's point is that the innovators/entrepreneurs (those who really drive the economy rather than just facilitate development, say) - that those people should be pandered to with tax-breaks (perhaps more so than sportstars and artists?).

[mypost]

The coming weeks will be a defining period for the Green Party. They can either stand up, be counted and vote against the budget, and force an election, or they can sit there, do what they're told, and risk going the same way as the PDs just have. A lapdog party seen as part of the problem by a very hostile electorate, and judged by them accordingly.

It's a tough call for Gormley to make.

[Macy]

Sitting on a load of oil which makes situation a bit different. In the good times we paid off our National Debt but unfortunately will have borrow all the cash again in less than 2 years.

Not that different. If we hadn't continually dropped income tax rates to unsustainable levels we could've paid more, or kept it aside for the inevitable rainy day. It's down to mismanagement by the Government, rather than a lack of oil that's the issue.

And even if you do take oil as being the difference. We do have significant resources, however the Government (including the current one with a Green Minister) continue to give them away for peanuts, with little financial upside and no guarantee of supply to us.

So to summerise, they've royally fooked it up either way in comparison to Norwa.

It is surprising that many people including politicians seem to think that a "super tax" will bring a lot of money. Adding even a new 50% tax for say those on 100k+ would not bring in much money.

It's all about optics though. The rich has to be seen to be paying their fair share. Personally, it's more important that they close tax shelters and continually and extensively go after tax loopholes the rich use to avoid paying even at the current rates. For all the talk of x amount of people not paying tax, it includes a significant proportion of rich people avoiding their fair share as well as those on lower incomes.

It's a tough call for Gormley to make.

They'll do nothing until June, when their ministerial pensions kick in. Never mind Planet Bertie, they're loving Planet Freeride.

[mypost]

JA/JB for those over 20 has miraculously escaped the knife. Those under it will receive €100 per week.

Those on the minimum wage are hit.

Income levies to double.

Cigarettes up 25c.

[OneRedArmy]

FF reinforces it's reputation as the politcal wing of the VFI by leaving booze untouched.

Complete lack of consistency on fuel tax. One budget hits diesel, the next petrol etc.

Otherwise no surprises any precious little positives.

Bad bank is required, key issue is what assets go in it and what price Government pay for them.

[Longfordian]

Yeah the diesel tax increase was something that jumped out at me as strange. He says people will buy their petrol in the North if he increases the tax on it, why petrol and not diesel?.

[dublinred]

The 4% income levy kicking in @75k is going to scalp a lot of people , chances are if you are got hit by this you will lose the childrens allowance as well.

[anto1208]

Doesn't really affect me to tell the truth. Jobseekers benifit untouched for over 20's thats me. Booze and petrol left alone thats good. Tax relief still in place if you bought your house less than 7 years ago thats me.

No job
No kids
Dont smoke

Ill have to wait for the full details to come out but i think im pretty much in the same position i was this morning.

[First]

Doesn't really affect me to tell the truth. Jobseekers benifit untouched for over 20's thats me. Booze and petrol left alone thats good. Tax relief still in place if you bought your house less than 7 years ago thats me.

No job
No kids
Dont smoke

Ill have to wait for the full details to come out but i think im pretty much in the same position i was this morning.

Probably in bed , waiting for dole day

Its shocking that they have taken away the bonus payment at Xmas for the long term unemployed . I for one remember that this payment was what made sure Santa brought what the child wanted.

It would be more in their interest if they investigated the "cheap flights social welfare migrants" that continue to rape the country.

On a wider vew there is nothing in this budget that will maintain jobs and create more.

[Mr A]

Joan Burton sums it up:

She said the First World War description of soldiers and generals as lions led by donkeys was the "perfect description for plight of Irish people today" .

Richard Bruton was also correct in saying this was a bookkeeping exercise with no real vision or focus on employment.

On the other hand of course, First World War soldiers didn't vote the donkeys in. The problem with democracy is that you get the government you deserve, and clearly as a nation we've done some pretty unsavoury s**t to deserve these idiots.

[mypost]

Its shocking that they have taken away the bonus payment at Xmas for the long term unemployed . I for one remember that this payment was what made sure Santa brought what the child wanted.

Taking away the Christmas bonus is disappointing but it is bearable.

Telling people that there will be no more increases in the coming years, regardless of the circumstances, is more significant

[First]

Telling people that there will be no more increases in the coming years, regardless of the circumstances, is more significant

Agreed , its shockng how no matter what happens in this country it is the poorest that always end up worst off. The Celtic tiger bypassed them and now it is acknowledged that it is dead the poor are to bare to me what is more than their fair share.

The halving of the Jobseekers allowance for the under 20's smacks of forced emmigration.

[KevB76]

Yeah the diesel tax increase was something that jumped out at me as strange. He says people will buy their petrol in the North if he increases the tax on it, why petrol and not diesel?.

Because diesel in the UK is already about 12p / litre more expensive than petrol, in comparison to being 8 to 10 cent/litre cheaper than petrol here.

Didnt they put 8c on petrol only in the last mini-budget?

[Dodge]

Details now up

http://budget.gov.ie

http://finance.gov.ie

[NeilMcD]

Agreed , its shockng how no matter what happens in this country it is the poorest that always end up worst off. The Celtic tiger bypassed them and now it is acknowledged that it is dead the poor are to bare to me what is more than their fair share.

The halving of the Jobseekers allowance for the under 20's smacks of forced emmigration.

I would consider myself of left wing views but surely the poorest in sociey should be the worst off otherwise it would incentivise people to do feck all. By being poor you are by nature the worst off.

The dole has not been touched despite the fact we are in deflation which is in fact an increase so that is fair.

He has adjusted the pension levy which seems to be fair also.

There is a lack of stimulus to create jobs in my view. The mistakes were largely made by Bertie Ahern, Charlie McCreevey and Mary Harney and Brian Cowen but only half of those are getting the blame now. The big mess ups were done over the last 10 years.

[First]

So with your thinking the poor should be forced downwards in society. I beleive that you reap what you sow in life but you would have to be extremely out of touch if you do not see how any reduction in the base payments to the unemployed or the minimum waged is only going to cause long term hurt to Ireland as a whole.

The reduction of the bonus payment is the reducing the ability of people to manage at what is universally seen as a time in the year that is hard at the best of times.

Poverty leads to crime , that is a fact. Blue collar crime. We all know where white collar crime leads

Asking the poor to pay for the incompantance of the established ,so called educated ,in the form of tax increases to attempt to balance the books while bailing out the property speculators and banks is grossly flawed.

What is going to protect the workers of this country , as our numbers dwindle each day.

There is nothing in this budget that will improve the views of the outside markets and invesrtors that Ireland , a country that has seen economic boom so badly miss managed , as a place for long term viability .

The creation of an asset management group to chase these "toxic debts" is to me as bad as the tribunals , putting money into something that will show no returns. Not only are they bailing these people out with their property speculating in this country but also for there dealings in eastern europe .Saying that this will free the banks to be able to lend again is just a mask. The actions needed now to keep the small to medium businesses going I fear will come too late and by this the suggestions of Employer PRSI reductions would help.

It is time for change in this country , we are too willing to lie down and take the crap that is thrown at us. We could start with getting out the government who for the last 15 years have grossly mis-managed the country while basing all its projections on a property boom while the infastructure remains 3rd world. Ask anyone in the freight / import / export industry .

We have to wake up to the fact that the country is not a viable place any more and we are just trying to stave off the enivitable moves that will come from Germany to bail us out and cost us our low corporate tax. This will lead to the mass evacuation of the US based companies from our shores.

Low interest rates and low inflation will only for a short time blanket the real fact that today a new generation of Irish people will at first hand lose their jobs , the way of life and for many the over valued homes to the banks who caused this problem. 100% motgages don't seem so good now.

[NeilMcD]

That to me is a well articulated rant but its still a rant. I do not believe that you should push the poor down. In fact if you read my posts I do not believe in lots of the points I was making. I was basically saying its a view and its out there and its valid. What I do not think is valid is just giving out for the sake of giving out without any real plan to correct these things.

The job of any government is to make sure that there is enough enterprise in the economy so that people can create wealth for themselves and in turn for their workers but at the same time making sure that the bottom of society are looked after enough in order not to create public disorder. You also need systems in place that those at the bottom of the rung can also at least climb up one rung and in time maybe climb to the top of the ladder. Where people and countries differ is the emphasis on the former over the latter or vice versa.

[First]

Fair enough it is a bit of a rant but I beleive in my views and being able to articulate them is thanks to an education provided to me by parents who flirted with the poverty line for many , many years. The low waged and unemployed are things that are very close to my heart and it always angers me when the net effect of any budget is to hurt these people in our society.

You are correct that we need to provide these people , whose numbers are growing each day with the resources to be able to climb that ladder and achieve something or regain in life. This is proving harder and harder for some as the big boot of government steps on their head

[tricky_colour]

Sitting on a load of oil which makes situation a bit different. In the good times we paid off our National Debt but unfortunately will have borrow all the cash again in less than 2 years.

It is surprising that many people including politicians seem to think that a "super tax" will bring a lot of money. Adding even a new 50% tax for say those on 100k+ would not bring in much money.

IMO PAYE should never go above 50% at the absolute maxmium no matter how much someone earns. It would be bad enough that the state would take 1/2 your pay let alone more than you get.

I can see another emergency Budget before the next schedule one as I am not convinced the government know what they are doing.

Oddly enough the government have too much of a problem slapping 80% taxes on cigarettes, which hit he poorest hardest.

Once the poor man has paid his taxes on beer fags and petrol he is paying a higher rates of that tax than millionaires. Not to mention other non-in related taxes.

Of course the rich manage to avoid paying most of thier taxes through loopholes such as pension contributions etc....anyway