One trick / on your bike Trap moanfest

**noddy102** · 31/03/2009, 9:07 AM

Physicality has become a big part of the game in recent years? What are you talking about!?! It has always been a big part of the game.
I can't recall McShane or Kelly playing much European football, and really both players have been tried and tested for both Ireland and in Premiership football, and at best they are relegation/lower mid-table standard.

**Jicked** · 31/03/2009, 9:14 AM

Yes, almost all analysts of the game would agree that phsyicality is becoming a bigger influence as the top teams put more emphasis on size. That's a relatively universally accepted comment.

I'm not saying McShane/Kelly are anything more than what you've said, but experience is hugely, hugely crucial, and you have to respect the fact that McShane has faced up against some of the worlds greatest attackers, whilst Foley plays for a Championship side. No manager worth their salt would just write off a factor like that because they read on a Wolves forum that Foley's been playing well.

**the doc** · 31/03/2009, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by SilkCut

Serious question Doc, not having a go or anything but who do you suggest he pick instead?? Its not like we are spoilt for choice. St. Ledger? Not much better, Foley? still not much better. There are players for the future who I agree he needs to have a look at such as Coleman. That stuff is for friendlies though we need players who have been around a while for qualifiers. Before anyone says he doesn't pick untried players in friendlies, remember he picked Andrews against Poland. Trap is not infallible but Jesus its not Italy he is managing.

I'd play Foley at RB, much better than McShane in all departments, as for St Ledger, I'd bring him into the squad ahead of Bruce and McShane, with a view to give him games in friendlies and time in competitive games as a long term replacement for O'Shea.

I don't agree with many on here that we lack quality, we have many players who will go onto and be a success in the Premiership, Foley and St Ledger are amongst those.

**Stuttgart88** · 31/03/2009, 9:33 AM

With regard to size, I actually think size has become increasingly important over the last 7 or 8 years. I expect improved nutritional standards of the last generation across the eastern block may be the reason.

However, it was correctly pointed out that the Spanish team showed that technique can win out over size, especially in an environment where referees follow the continental doctrine. Players like Iniesta, Arshavin, Modric, our own Stephen Ireland even, show that technique and intelligence can win out.

Jicked, I think the main point was that McShane's limitations on the ball placed too much pressure on McGeady. Also, at no point was McShane able to develop play. Hence the ball kept coming back to us. I don't think this was a tactical failing of Trap's as such, just the pure limitations of the player. Foley, being a natural right back, could have been a better option against a team that we could have beaten if we'd used the ball better.

I think Ifk101's post on the other thread addressed this issue well though.

**Jicked** · 31/03/2009, 9:42 AM

While I agree McShane probably isn't as comfortable on the ball in the RB position as Foley would be, and yes that could have impacted on McGeady's game, I wouldn't blame McShane for not developing the play. He was clearly under orders not to try to get involved and I agree with that. Kilbane and he were told to stay put, O'Shea and Dunne weren't to roam in to midfield, instead everyone just kept their discipline and positions. For me that paid off, we restricted Bulgaria to one good chance in the whole game, despite giving them most of the possession, and created more than enough chances to win the game ourselves (Keane, McGeady, Doyle and the goal itself).

If we have McShane and Kilbane contributing more going forward and developing the play we're going to leave ourselves exposed, and that simply didn't happen against Bulgaria despite their amount of possession. I think away from home the tactic will work a treat, especially in Sofia (you'd expect Italy to have too much for us tonight, whatever the tactics/formation) but would like the two in the middle to be able to put their foot on it a bit more. I thought the first 45 minutes in the friendly against Norway was superb, would love to see us recreate that style of play again, but it requires two bigger performances from our two in the middle.

**Stuttgart88** · 31/03/2009, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Jicked

I thought the first 45 minutes in the friendly against Norway was superb, would love to see us recreate that style of play again, but it requires two bigger performances from our two in the middle.

Yep, best CM performance in years. We played most of the first half in their half, Norway couldn't keep the ball at all.

**irishultra** · 31/03/2009, 10:32 AM

it was a such a joy to watch that day. we defended relatively high up the pitch and were content to just keep the ball moving. I thought it was a sign of things to come

**cestlavie** · 31/03/2009, 1:08 PM

Even though I dont think Trap is a long term solution j(ust like Charlton when he stayed on far too long and we suffered for years as a result), I just like all the people on here would love it if we got a result against the Italians tomorrow, As a country we need a lift. I remember Ray Houghton's goal, what a night, it was a pity but that was as good as it got, that was Irelands world cup. Come on the boys in green.

**Jicked** · 01/04/2009, 9:09 PM

One trick Trap?

Hat-trick of brilliant subsitutions and he outfoxes the World Champions and Marcello Lippi.

Unbeaten.

**jebus** · 01/04/2009, 9:21 PM

where are all these muppets now? We outplayed Italy tonight, great substitutions by Trap and we should have won the game in the end

**Maroon 7** · 01/04/2009, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jicked

One trick Trap?

Hat-trick of brilliant subsitutions and he outfoxes the World Champions and Marcello Lippi.

Steady on now. They did have to play the entire game with 10 men.

**Stuttgart88** · 01/04/2009, 9:23 PM

More than the 3 subs: JO'S moving to RB was a good move too. I thought Folan made a difference immediately. It made sense playing Robbie deeper, Doyle looked nacked, Gibson & Whelan between then got the bit between their teeth and N. Hunt looked like it was his 100th cap he was so unnerved. Fair play Trap, if not for your starting XI, but for the way you responded to the game's flow.

Now, can we play this way every game please?

**SkStu** · 01/04/2009, 9:25 PM

to Jicked & Jebus - a few of my quotes from the game thread.

just want to say that if we can kick on, performance wise, from this and produce that sort of football on a regular basis then i will hold my hands up and admit that maybe i had Trap all wrong, something Dunphy will and would never do. He got his substitutions spot on and im glad he took Keogh off though i questioned it at the time.

i certainly dont feel like an eejit. I stand by my criticisms of Saturdays performance and i just cant believe we didnt kick on after the first goal. Tonight showed what we can do if we are allowed.

with due acknowledgement of the fact that we played 10 men for nearly 90 minutes.

**Jicked** · 01/04/2009, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Now, can we play this way every game please?

if we're chasing a game...sure. Otherwise I'd like to stick to grinding out results and protecting that dodgy back four as much as possible and hitting teams on the break.

**Jicked** · 01/04/2009, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by SkStu

to Jicked & Jebus - a few of my quotes from the game thread.

with due acknowledgement of the fact that we played 10 men for nearly 90 minutes.

Oh I'm not having a go at all, just standing up for Trap. I felt it was crazy to turn on the players/management/system after a game where we gave away one chance all game, and felt Trap vindicated that tonight.

Those saying he's past it or to old for it are the people I'd have a go at, tonight proved that is rubbish.

**Norm** · 01/04/2009, 9:32 PM

Originally Posted by jebus

where are all these muppets now? We outplayed Italy tonight, great substitutions by Trap and we should have won the game in the end

I agree and disagree at the same time.

We definately outplayed Italy, but I feel that was more a result of a very questionable sending off then anything Ireland had to offer.

We could have won, but even against 10 men I don't thing we looked good enough.

I think Trap only made the changes as a result of the sending off and they were questionable changes. Hunt for Doyle..?? Gibson for Andrews, I would have thought Gibson was good enough to start, a like for like substitution anyway so not very match changing. The Folan substitution was a good one, but begs the question why we didn't go for Bulgaria on Sat night in a similar fashion.

If Trap had sent his team out tonight and last Saturday night with the same attitude they showed after 20 mins of tonight's game we could be in a far better position in the group.

**jebus** · 01/04/2009, 9:37 PM

We can't change the red card Norm, we can only play against whats out in front of us and I disagree with taking away from our performance like that

As for the subs, Andrews was having a nightmare so Gibson was the obvious choice, Folan sub changed the game and Doyle was looking knackered so needed to come off, Hunt wasn't a bad replacement

Stu that comment about the 10 men goes to you too

**Jicked** · 01/04/2009, 9:40 PM

Gibson does have a better eye to spot a pass, with Italy playing as deep as they were and with such numbers it made sense to go for that vision to try and thread a few balls through. A few times Gibson spotted good balls but just couldn't execute them.

**Stuttgart88** · 01/04/2009, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Norm

I think Trap only made the changes as a result of the sending off and they were questionable changes. Hunt for Doyle..?? Gibson for Andrews, I would have thought Gibson was good enough to start, a like for like substitution anyway so not very match changing. The Folan substitution was a good one, but begs the question why we didn't go for Bulgaria on Sat night in a similar fashion.

If Trap had sent his team out tonight and last Saturday night with the same attitude they showed after 20 mins of tonight's game we could be in a far better position in the group.

Surely a manager's job is to respond to the game's circumstances?

Folan - good move.

Gibson for Andrews: not quite like with like. Gibson moves the ball better than Andrews though Andrews is more aggressive.

Hunt for Doyle? Doyle barely came out for the second half. I reckon he was shattered. I thought it was a good call though maybe Long's speed may have been more harmful.

**Jicked** · 01/04/2009, 9:44 PM

Trap mentioned he thought some players were tiring today, I'd say Doyle was in mind then, he looked shattered alright. Noelio came on and worked well, with Folan as the target man there was a lot of nippy players working well around him.
Amazing defence by Italy to not once give Noel Hunt, Stephen Hunt, Keane, Whelan or Gibson a single sight of goal. Any time anyone looked to have a pop at goal a charger closed them down in a flash. Even more impressive when you consider they had 10 men.