Lansdowne Road Redevelopment

**republic** · 23/12/2003, 1:13 PM

Originally posted by gspain
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Yes I did experience some sectarianism from a minority of the home fans during our 3 games at Windsor in 88,93 & 94 but it was never anything like as bad as protrayed in the media.

However having said all that 22,000 people at home in Dublin has got to be the best option if Croke Park remains shut to "British" games.

I was at the 1994 match in Windsor. It was not an enjoyable experience despite the 4-0 victory. I doubt if gspain stayed to exchange pleasantries with the home supporters after the game

but perhaps I'm mistaken?

I thought the atmosphere was extremely nasty. I haven't experienced such a threatening atmosphere since then despite regularly attending matches in the Premiership, very often being part of the away support in places such as Old Trafford, Goodison, Stamford Bridge etc.

22,000 is a joke and would hand a distinct advantage to the away side. I can just imagine the French and Swiss reaction to hearing that the ground will be half empty.

**Junior** · 23/12/2003, 1:25 PM

Originally posted by gspain
Another reason why Celtic Park would be totally unacceptable is the logistics of gettign there.

It is a long way overland - Manchester and Liverpool are much more accessible.

It doesn't have the airlinks that London or even the north west of England has with Dublin.

We also have a significant travelling support from england (mainly London). We get very few Scottish based people travelling to our games.

However having said all that 22,000 people at home in Dublin has got to be the best option if Croke Park remains shut to "British" games.

Firstly, My preferred option is for games to remain in Ireland.

However, the argument against Glasgow for logistical reasons doesn't add up.

Airports in Prestwick, Glasgow & Edinburgh all ideal for games at CP. Ferry route to Stranraer from Belfast

As Im sure you're aware this very journey is made by thousands every other week.

I agree that we don't get much support from Scottish based fans and this could lead to alot of bandwagon jumpers, but to be fair that would happen anywhere in the UK, with 1G, 2G Irish who do not normally travel to games suddenly finding one on their doorstep.

**gspain** · 23/12/2003, 1:45 PM

Originally posted by republic
I was at the 1994 match in Windsor. It was not an enjoyable experience despite the 4-0 victory. I doubt if gspain stayed to exchange pleasantries with the home supporters after the game but perhaps I'm mistaken?

I thought the atmosphere was extremely nasty. I haven't experienced such a threatening atmosphere since then despite regularly attending matches in the Premiership, very often being part of the away support in places such as Old Trafford, Goodison, Stamford Bridge etc.

22,000 is a joke and would hand a distinct advantage to the away side. I can just imagine the French and Swiss reaction to hearing that the ground will be half empty.

At least there would be an away side.

I was in the top tier of the north Stand in 94 and I appreciate a number of people around me left after our second goal (approx 10 minutes gone). However we had over 1,000 fans at the game mixed in with the home fans and I haven't heard of anyone being attacked. Yes there was some verbals. I actually took great pride in the fact that NI fans could sit with the home fans at Lansdowne and not receive any abuse and still cheer openly for their team. Also at least one Union Jack clearly visible during the 93 game. I was only a kid at the 78 game in Lansdowne but my memory is tthat there was an away end on the north terrace and plenty of Ulster flags.

I understand things are a lot better now. I was also at a coupler of other NI games at Windsor - Denmark 90 & Lithuania 92 and no issues at all - plenty of laughing and joking and we were clearly identified as southerners well before Lithuania's 2 goals. This was the opening game in our group and obviously we wanted Lithuania to get a result.

I appreciate you could probably cheer openly at Old Trafford for the away side (not Liverpool or City) and it wouldn't cause ariot unless you knocked over somebody's chardonnay. A mate of mine who is a Leeds fan was at Stamford Bridge with me a few days after the Wembley match in 91 and it was not a pleasant experience for him in the old West Stand. He didn't dare move a muscle when Leeds scored. I haven't been to Stamford Bridge for 4 years now but I doubt if you could cheer openly for the away side in the home end without getting some abuse. Never been to Goodison.

I have only once been really physically threatened at a football match and that was an end of season 3rd division game at Southend in 1989 when my female companion and I rose to acclaim Reading's first attack and equaliser after 86 minutes of dreadful football. She was hit, I was about to take a heavy beating when Southend got a winner and we escaped.

Also been with the home fans at Millwall in the old and New Den - not a pleasant experience and things are a lot better in the New Den.

**gspain** · 23/12/2003, 1:55 PM

Originally posted by Junior
Firstly, My preferred option is for games to remain in Ireland.

However, the argument against Glasgow for logistical reasons doesn't add up.

Airports in Prestwick, Glasgow & Edinburgh all ideal for games at CP. Ferry route to Stranraer from Belfast

As Im sure you're aware this very journey is made by thousands every other week.

I agree that we don't get much support from Scottish based fans and this could lead to alot of bandwagon jumpers, but to be fair that would happen anywhere in the UK, with 1G, 2G Irish who do not normally travel to games suddenly finding one on their doorstep.

Belfast is 2.5 hours by road from Dublin and further from Limerick, Cork etc. Then you have the road trip up from Stranraer - did it in 91 via Larne (from Galway) and it was a long long haul. there are flights to Prestwick, Glasgow and Edinburgh as you say but these are much mess frequent than flights to London say.

I know it can be done and is done but it is not the easiest and most accesible city in the UK from Ireland. Manchester and Liverpool have plenty of options by boat and air and are much closer. 99 minutes to Holyhead and 2 hours to Liverpool or Manchester by car. Direct boat to Liverpool etc.

Furthermore it does not make sense to bring thousands of RoI fans through Northern Ireland en route to a game.

Anyway I don't see any positives for Celtic Park. It looks like a fine stadium on tv (was a kip in 91) but then so is Old Trafford or indeed Anfield etc.

**lopez** · 24/12/2003, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by republic
As regards "sending out the wrong message" why should we care what the Norn Iron supporters think. These are the people that happily call us "beggars" on their own unofficial supporters website.

Exactly. Why should we be concerned with supporters that call us 'beggars'? I'd say Fenians and Taigs are less offensive. Incidentally, wasn't it Rangers supporters who used to call Celtic fans beggars due to the clubs origins - charity, poor Irish, beggars, geddit? Wow, what a f*cking coincidence?

I have yet to see any criticism of this label...or indeed 'plastic paddy' which is not used to describe us mortals on the

'mainland' - no we're just English - but Irish nationalists in the O6C who follow their own country, by the IFA's community officer who posts on the site, mostly in a semi-official capacity. If anyone can supply me with a quote from Michael Boyd on the web site to the contrary, then I will gladly retract this statement with an apology. In the meantime I can only presume that the author of the IFA's much acclaimed campaign against bigotry, must find this label acceptable.

The only wrong message to be sent from playing at Parkhead is that the powers that be can't get their act together and build a proper stadium in Ireland. If we have to play abroad, then it makes sense to play where there is a greater 1st and 2nd generation community - London, Manchester, or Birmingham - rather than in a city where very little travelling support comes from which is Glasgow, and where the local participation could well hinge on the availability of a Rangers player (current or former) or Jimmy Hill, to boo.

Originally posted by gspain
I was in the top tier of the north Stand in 94 and I appreciate a number of people around me left after our second goal (approx 10 minutes gone). However we had over 1,000 fans at the game mixed in with the home fans and I haven't heard of anyone being attacked.

That's because they had some sense and kept themselves to themselves. In two games I've been to WP (missed 93) I've yet to see a tricolour displayed, even in an official capacity. It's not just the crowd that you can blame. We could go up there mob handed and kick off, if that was what we were into. It's the 'security' forces that supervise the place and their one-sided policing that makes it impossible for Irish fans to follow their team as they do in other countries.

Things have changed, yes. But then the O6C has changed since 1994 - I was at the Spain game this year and didn't hear any party songs, not even for the most Catholic country on the planet, but still saw sectarian paraphanalia being worn by some fans. However if you think that the football sectarianism of the North is overrated then why the concern over Irish fans travelling through there?

**gspain** · 24/12/2003, 9:02 AM

Originally posted by lopez
Exactly. :

I have yet to see any criticism of this label...or indeed 'plastic paddy' which is not used to describe us mortals on the 'mainland' - no we're just English - but Irish nationalists in the O6C who follow their own country, by the IFA's community officer who posts on the site, mostly in a semi-official capacity. If anyone can supply me with a quote from Michael Boyd on the web site to the contrary, then I will gladly retract this statement with an apology. In the meantime I can only presume that the author of the IFA's much acclaimed campaign against bigotry, must find this label acceptable.

That's because they had some sense and kept themselves to themselves. In two games I've been to WP (missed 93) I've yet to see a tricolour displayed, even in an official capacity. It's not just the crowd that you can blame. We could go up there mob handed and kick off, if that was what we were into. It's the 'security' forces that supervise the place and their one-sided policing that makes it impossible for Irish fans to follow their team as they do in other countries.

Things have changed, yes. But then the O6C has changed since 1994 - I was at the Spain game this year and didn't hear any party songs, not even for the most Catholic country on the planet, but still saw sectarian paraphanalia being worn by some fans. However if you think that the football sectarianism of the North is overrated then why the concern over Irish fans travelling through there?

Lopez I've yet to see anything written by Michael Boyd that could be remotely construed as sectarian. he is definitely one of the good guys.

There are still some problems at Windsor yes some people will wear some sectarian stuff but they are very much in the minority and don't appear very often.

There are of course still problems with sectarianism in general with society in Northern Ireland. they haven't gone away. I do think it is over-rated.

Windsor Park was not a family day out for any of our games. there were sectarian comments and sectarian songs although it was taken out of proportion. You're correct in that you couldn't (and nobody did) produce a tricolour and sing Come on you boys in green.

At the B game in Portadown or the youths game at the Oval I could cheer iopenly for Ireland without any problems. Most of the other southern fans at the Oval appeared to be parents etc. We came from 2 down to win 3-2 in Portadown and I was jumping around the place. BTW don't recall any sectarian chants, comments at that game and certainly nothing at me indeed was made to feel very welcome.

I never had an issue with the police or army at any game and found them to be very helpful.

I have no problem going to NI and in general think there is no problem. I would imagine thousands of Irish fans would pass safely throughto the ferries but there is the potential for things to go wrong. A car or bus full of Irish fans in green white and orange colours going into the wrong area in Belffast or Larne could cause an issue. I appreciate Celtic supporters buses do it all the time but they know their way at this stage. I appreciate it is a small risk but frankly an unneccessary one.

**lopez** · 24/12/2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by gspain
Lopez I've yet to see anything written by Michael Boyd that could be remotely construed as sectarian. he is definitely one of the good guys.

Boyd posts on a site where 'beggars' is the standard word for Irish fans from the 26C. Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if they called us communion wafer chomping hijos de putas. Just don't come all that 'we're not sectarian/bigoted because we don't use Fenian or Taig' sh*te and expect us to think it's just harmless banter.

The trouble is not what Boyd has said - he's the man trying to get the RC population back to Windsor Park in a manner reminiscent of how telephone companies after treating their 'customers' like sh*te for years, tell them 'we've changed'. He's hardly gonna call us Fenian b*stards - it's what he doesn't say. Perhaps if he could denounce the use of this word it might give some credibility among many nationalists, me included. He could also point out that Ireland isn't divided by a physical border but by ethnicity - even if it seems miniscule in comparison to the differences in Israel or Zimbabwe - and that Northern Nationalists have the right to follow whoever the f*ck they like. After all there's a bunch of Donegal born Finn Harps fans that follow NI (as well as Rangers) for exactly the same ethnical reasons.

Originally posted by gspain
There are still some problems at Windsor yes some people will wear some sectarian stuff but they are very much in the minority and don't appear very often.

I've witnessed the new WP, and it is an huge improvement on the my two previous visits. But then we have to take into account the opposition on those two occasions. While some still seem to add No Surrender to parts of the British (another discreprency) anthem, there were many around me that refused point blank to sing one line of it whatsoever. Knowing how unionists love the German lady, I can only assume a large number of nationalists support the side. However most of these were fifty plus, many with their grandchildren. A whole generation of Nationalists will never return to WP to support NI, as I witnessed by the large number in the Botanic Inn before the game coming into watch Ireland's game with Georgia.

Originally posted by gspain
At the B game in Portadown or the youths game at the Oval I could cheer iopenly for Ireland without any problems. Most of the other southern fans at the Oval appeared to be parents etc. We came from 2 down to win 3-2 in Portadown and I was jumping around the place. BTW don't recall any sectarian chants, comments at that game and certainly nothing at me indeed was made to feel very welcome.

As you noted, after two goals down, the hangers - on left WP in 94. Junior games will always attract the 'real' supporter, although to openly support the Republic in Portadown is to me amazing.

Originally posted by gspain
I never had an issue with the police or army at any game and found them to be very helpful.

In 88 a load of us had to stand getting abuse from one care-in-the-community case who in normal circumstances would be arrested before he got punched. The RUC just stood there watching, no doubt waiting for one of us to lamp him.

After the game we were taken onto the M1 through an iron door in the peace (sic.) line. While the RUC bent over their land rovers with rifles pointed across the motorway, not one of them told us that maybe it would be a good idea to get behind the land rovers. No. They just let people walk up the motorway. If we got shot, then the RUC would be quids in twice. A taig - better still an 'English' one - would be dead or injured and the IRA had done the job for them. The fact that we got to the end of the motorway uninjured was not down to the big friendly policemen of the RUC. And on top of that another police land rover feels the need to mount the pavement by the roundabout to try and take out me and a mate.

**gspain** · 24/12/2003, 4:51 PM

Portadown has a bad name in the media and there are nutters on both sides re the Garvaghy Road dispute.

Have had RC players and officials - one mentioned to me at a game in 93 that they had fielded 9 RCs out of 13 at a recent game.

Also openly supported Limerick at a pre-season friendly in Ballymena - no bother at all in fact made very welcome.

Then coming from Limerick I'm used to places getting undeserved stick.

BTW I'm aware of the east Donegal NI supporters club and frankly I don't like it and wish they'd support us.

Re the term beggars, well I'm not easily insulted and it doesn't really bother me. I'd be much more concerned if our so-called fans started using offensive terms for opposing fans. NI see us as their rivals and in most cases in football there is a derogatory term for rivals. - scum etc.

Michael Boyd has not used inappropriate language that I'm aware of and lots of people post on the site incl me.

**lopez** · 24/12/2003, 5:55 PM

Originally posted by gspain
BTW I'm aware of the east Donegal NI supporters club and frankly I don't like it and wish they'd support us.

The one thing that peeves me about the odd poster on this site is the insistence that Northern Naitonalists MUST support NI because that was where they were born. It's fine having a username after the nom de guerre of Belfast's most famous fascist but you don't have to behave like one.

Back in the seventies, I supported NI whenever they were the on the box in the British championship. I think that most Irish football fans of my age would agree they did too. Thing is that a team that plays GSTQ before matches, plays under the Butcher's Apron (as it most definately did in the seventies) and boos its own players for playing for a certain Glasgow club with Irish roots hardly endears itself to Nationalists.

Added to this is the myth that northern nationalists are glory-hunters. I don't see Northern GAA fans supporting Cork, Kerry or Meath in the eighties and nineties. Northern nationalists would support all teams in Ireland just like general Joe Public in Britain supports another British team if theirs gets knocked out. However, NI is no ordinary team. The fact that they have had a campaign to end sectarianism says it all.

Saying that, I couldn't give a f*ck who the Donegal NI supporters follow. They can hardly be labelled glory-hunters and I'm sure they are following NI for the same reasons thousands of Northern Nationalists follow us. I'd fight tooth and nail if someone told me I MUST support England. Good luck to them. If nothing else it means a few less people chasing tickets next season.

Originally posted by gspain
Re the term beggars, well I'm not easily insulted and it doesn't really bother me.

I said it didn't bother me either. Just that they claim it's different from clalling us Fenians.

Originally posted by gspain
I'd be much more concerned if our so-called fans started using offensive terms for opposing fans. NI see us as their rivals and in most cases in football there is a derogatory term for rivals. - scum etc.

I'd like to have a rival that is not 150th in the world rankings but that is a bit below the belt. As for Scum, well when the supporters of a certain team not a million miles away of whom I've had personal contact with, start behaving like humans - suggestions are stop smashing up our stadium even if that's what's needed or sneaking up to a pub mob handed which has about half a dozen Irish fans, an comotosed old drunk and a couple with a baby, and then attack it with bricks - I'll stop calling them scum. But then I'm sure you'll suggest that it's only a minority, and they are mostly loveable rogues.

Originally posted by gspain
Michael Boyd has not used inappropriate language that I'm aware of and lots of people post on the site incl me.

Again you misread my post. I didn't accuse him of using 'inapropriate' language. If he did he'd be sacked by now. It's the absence of him posting a thread along the lines of 'Beggars. Its Sectarian, stoopid!' or 'Plastic Paddies: Hmm where the f*ck is Donegal then?'

Shona Nollaig/Feliz navidad.