Irish public popularity shift away from soccer?

[elroy]

1) They're more Irish on the basis that all of the team were actually born in this country and don't have English accents. I'd never question their commitment but if Kevin Kilbane, Lee Carsley, Liam Lawerence, Sean St Ledger, Steven Reid and Clinton Morrison were a class better and had the opportunity to play for England over us a niggling voice in the back of my head tells me that they would. The rest of them haven't lived in this country since they were children. I'd never question the Irishness of someone like Shay Given or Kevin Doyle but for every one of them there's an Andy O Brien, Stephen Carr and despite my fondness for him as player, as an Irishman "pride" is the last thing I'd associate with Stephen Ireland.

2) My point is Bowe moved because he wanted to advance his career and wasnt good enough for Leinster or Munster. He left the country for a place in a decent team not for lack of patriotism or money or whatever else you're trying to claim.

3) "Proved wrong in it"? The only thing I was proved "wrong" in was I said teacht when I meant scoil.

1 Not all born in Ireland actually, Tom Court, Isaac Boss, Malcolm O'Kelly for example. I take your point on the players that would potentially choose to play for England above us if given the chance, however I would remove Kilbane from that list.

2 Fine, im not trying to claim anything other than you had made the point that they were more "worthy" of your support due to the fact they lived here. But could the exact same reasoning you made above not be pointed at Kevin Doyle, the Hunt brothers etc who didnt leave Ireland due to lack of patriotism more so to further their careers with a better team.

3 On proven wrong, I meant the large numbers of players apparently "fluent" in Irish, also as pointed out above neither are gaelscoils. Although your definition of fluent would seem to include a large part of the population. Again, I dont really see how this is a fair judgement of someones "Irishness" but anyways.

[Lionel Ritchie]

1) They're more Irish on the basis that all of the team were actually born in this country and don't have English accents.

Okay Ciaran - I wasn't taking your bait til now, but at this point you can certifiably go blow it out your hole.

I'd never question their commitment but if Kevin Kilbane, Lee Carsley, Liam Lawerence, Sean St Ledger, Steven Reid and Clinton Morrison were a class better and had the opportunity to play for England over us a niggling voice in the back of my head tells me that they would.

So what? It' s called dual nationality. A lot of people have it these days.

Now -end of Sos bell is ringing ...away back to rangeanna dó in the gealteacht ...sorry, gealscoil with you.

[Macy]

Interesting that many who slag off the rugby crowd refer to football as soccer. I think that shows as much about their real allegiances as anything, and maybe contributes to the case that it's actually the GAA that are most worried about the rise of Rugby.

[endabob1]

Rugby in Ireland was on an even keel with the rest of europe from the start, when it went from being amateur to professional, and the IRFU reacted well to this, by keeping the feeders to province. They kept all their players at home and paid the same wages relative to other countries i.e. England and France, they made a point of keeping their best players in Ireland, and it has paid off 10 fold. Irish teams have been very successful in the Heineken cup, their wages have been as good as any other country and their chances of playing top class international rugby have also increased. Their is no reason for the players to leave IReland, and the IRFU must be commended for getting their house in order from the very start.

You're crediting the IRFU with a bit much, in fact they were slow to get into the professional era and Gatland's appointmend really signalled the re-structure of Irish Rugby along the lines of the All-Black structure where the players are centrally contracted and thus the National team callls the shots followed by the province and finally the clubs.
Contrast this structure with England & France where there is constant club v country disputes because the clubs hold the contracts & players could (and do) earn much larger salaries than they do in Ireland (or Wales which has a similar structure to us). BOD was busy flashing his knickers at all and sundry in France when his last IRFU contract was up for negotiation and has consistently commented on his interest in playing in France, yes there are cultural reasons but priamrily it would be for the same reasons that after the last RWC several All Blacks & Springboks turned up in the French League.

The truth is the IRFU are really only competing to keep a handfull of players and they are not suffering the outflow of 16 year old boys on an annual basis.
They are not YET in the position that the southern hemisphere sides are where they do not pick overseas players as this is their only weapon to compete with the lucrative salaries on offer in England & France in particular.
So even though the IRFU has a solid system in place at the moment, we are a small country and without continued investment, foreign money will start to lure our players away.
I agree there is a much longer way to go for the FAI to be able to keep players at home. Coaching to the level they would receive elsewhere in Europe, an acadamey system or an institute of sport (like the Australian model) are what is needed but they are light years away.

[Schumi]

it's actually the GAA that are most worried about the rise of Rugby.

That's the first thing I thought when I saw the figures at thye top of the thread. The GAA finals' viewing figures were about 70% of the big football and rugby internationals.

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting that many who slag off the rugby crowd refer to football as soccer.

Ridiculous.

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting that many who slag off the rugby crowd refer to football as soccer. I think that shows as much about their real allegiances as anything

Ridiculous.

[paul_oshea]

Ridiculous.

Stutts don't worry he is a bit out of touch with growing up on the West side of the IRish sea....

[EastTerracer]

rugby is actually huge in many countries that are not in the rugby limelight and coverage of our grand slam will be a lot wider than that clown would ever imagine

I won't argue that there are people outside the traditional rugby countries (the US, for example) who do take an interest in the sport and participate to a certain extent. However, it is far from being a global game.

In 2007 a Management Consulting firm did an in-depth study of the sport globally to try and highlight the problems facing the game. The full details are available here http://www.puttingrugbyfirst.com but I think the key point is captured below:

"According to the International Rugby Board (IRB), there are more than four million registered players worldwide, but more than half are from England and over threequarters (3.3 million) come from the eight Foundation Unions overall. Meanwhile, there are less than a quarter of a million players in the ten most populous nations of the world (China, India, USA, Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Russia, Nigeria, and Japan).

Television audience data for the 2007 World Cup final, between South Africa and England, shows that 97% of the 33 million total viewers came from the Foundation Unions – with just half a million viewers of the final spread amongst all the remaining nations where it was shown live. There are 115 members of the IRB – but rugby is evidently not particularly popular in most of them."

When compared with truly global sporting events like the football World Cup or the Olympics these figures show that rugby remains a regional game with two main catchment areas (SA/Australia/NZ and the 5 Nations). In all the other countries (Argentina, Italy, Romania etc.) its a minority game which doesn't attract large television audiences.

The International Rugby Board consistently peddles the line that an audience of 4 billion people watched the rugby world cup but that is a cumulative number for all the games in the finals tournament and I believe it is based on the "potential" audience for the games and not the actual number of viewers.

[jbyrne]

good post east terracer but for myres to compare our grand slam win to skiing is ridiculous and thats what my point was. i would still maintain that rugby in countries like argentina, georgia, japan, russia, canada etc is getting very popular despite the fact that they are not (with the exception of argentina) in the rugby limelight

[EastTerracer]

jbyrne - fair point, I don't have any time for Myers and his attention-seeking either.

[John83]

I'd never question Kilbanes commitment to our team, he's the most committed guy we have. But I don't know, he grew up in England, chose to work in England and will almost certainly live the rest of his life after his playing career in England. I know its a thing from older generations that it was acceptable to be in love with a country that you've never been to (especially if you're American on March 17th) but I just don't get that, you end up where you want to be. And for Kevin thats the north of England. I can't praise him enough for his professionalism though.

When Kilbane was a teenager, he was pressured by his manager to declare for England - one of their youth teams had come knocking. He flat out refused. He was Irish. He could have actually been as good as Zidane, and he'd still be playing for us. You can put that thought out of your head for him.

[Torn-Ado]

having been in cardiff last sat it reminded me of how our football occasions used to be. loyal, hardcore and colourful support was to be seen by both sides. the whole day in cardiff was a massive sporting occasion and this was all because of the match that was in it. if our footballers can achieve similar relative success over the next few months then football will be right up there again in the eyes of the nation.
unfortunately for the last few years our football team have underperformed and appeared to lack a little care and passion. the apparent current apathy towards our team by the general public will disappear with a few good results over the next few games

Holland at Lansdowne in 2001 was probably the last time.

[mypost]

against the two sports I am slowly drifting away from soccer as a passion. Why? Because I am sick to the back teeth of the cheating, gamesmanship & physical / verbal abuse the referees get on a match by match basis. The concept of respect and decency has disappeared from the game - completely in some quarters - and it's hard for myself to respect and identify with a group of players who think nothing of abusing the laws for their own gain. Or manhandling the referee 'cos they can. Granted it's not widespread and the Irish players are as honest as they get these days in soccer, but it's hard to justify the attitudes. Talking about the "passion of the game" just can't cut it.

Contrast that with rugby, where you have men weighing in at 100Kg or so being told off like little schoolboys by a referee who commands the pitch. There's no cheating, abuse (hell there's no swearing as I recall Darcy getting threatened with a yellow card for his language) & the law is applied equally and ruthlessly. Even after the game you have citations to ensure some justice is done. It's just a different attitude altogether. Now granted, rugby's a potentially more dangerous sport so the laws have to be strict or else the injuries could be dreadful, but the on-pitch ref, linesmen & TV ref have genuine authority and are not afraid to show it. "Yes sir" chirps O'Driscoll when Ireland get blown up for a penalty.

You can say the same about golf, tennis, cricket, motorsport in relation to football.

Despite that, more people can play football than drive racing cars, or complete a round of golf in less than 72 strokes. Football is also considerably more exciting than any of the above, or rugby.

[bennocelt]

Interesting that many who slag off the rugby crowd refer to football as soccer. I think that shows as much about their real allegiances as anything, and maybe contributes to the case that it's actually the GAA that are most worried about the rise of Rugby.

I was thinking this myself too

[gspain]

At primary level, just because its in your culture doesn't mean everyone went to only one school.
I'm quoting Luke Fitzgerald on this, I'm sure he knows a lot more on the subject than you do.

On this thread

You have used false tv viewing figures for the Ireland v Cyprus game comparing to rugby and GAA

Claimed Jerry flannery and Paul O'Connell were from the gaeltacht (there isn't any in Limerick btw)

Then claimed their school St Munchins and Ard Scoil Ris are gaelscoils (they are not)

Now next time you have a drink with your buddy Luke ask him the gaelscoils they went to at primary level?

so how about you quit trolling here and go somewhere else.

[Drumcondra 69er]

When Kilbane was a teenager, he was pressured by his manager to declare for England - one of their youth teams had come knocking. He flat out refused. He was Irish. He could have actually been as good as Zidane, and he'd still be playing for us. You can put that thought out of your head for him.

You can add Lee Carsley to that list as well, he's Irish through and through and grew up in the Irish clubs in the midlands. As for Ciaran dropping Stephen Carr's name into the mix I'm baffled by that one.

Having just read the entire thread it's now obvious to me why Ciaran has, as long as he's been posting, come up with the litany of inaccuracies, crazy opinion and general bufoonery that has begotten his reputation. He's clearly a rugby fan with too much time on his hands who enjoys the reaction he gets from football fans to his trolling and wind up's. The fact that the widely available viewing figures for the Georgia game were left out of his initial post undermines his entire argument straight away in any case.

[amaccann]

You can say the same about golf, tennis, cricket, motorsport in relation to football.

Despite that, more people can play football than drive racing cars, or complete a round of golf in less than 72 strokes. Football is also considerably more exciting than any of the above, or rugby.

What has the number of people playing the sport got to do with it? Or excitement? My point is purely down to the public's perception of the two sports based on fair play and basic sportsmanship.

My point is that while footie has slowly slipped down the slope of fair-play & in my mind become more and more a cynical sport of gamesmanship, rugby has maintained what the codgers on RTE like to call the "amateur era philosophy".

For the record, I find rugby's thrills far different to football's. Not better, not less, just different.

[Shilts]

I'm from Cork so I can't speak for the rest of the country.
Soccer or football will always be the game of the common man because Rugby in spite of the hype is for middle/upper class people.
All the Irish Internationals in Cork come from 1 of 2 schools. CBC and PBC. These 2 fee paying schools provide OUR rugby representatives. I can not remember the last time a corkman from outside of these two schools went on to represent the rugby international team. Answers on a postcard please - it would be interesting.

This year in the munster schools cup final, CBC beat Rockwell a repeat of the final 100 years ago. (In Leinster, Blackrock won again for the one millionth time). Nothing is changing.

In Cork it seems that rugby hierarchy want us to support the teams but will not allow 'common folk' to play with the teams. There is no effort to set up a schools team from a disadvantaged area. Whereas there will be plenty of football teams in these areas who fill the sporting need.

I don't see the rugby teams, Munster and Ireland as representing me. Best of luck to them in their competitions but I don't feel that anybody can go from Knocknaheeny or Mayfield Community Schools and play for Ireland, unlike other sports.

This may be different in other parts of the country but in Cork the 'old school tie' brigade are very much in evidence.

[elroy]

I'm from Cork so I can't speak for the rest of the country.
Soccer or football will always be the game of the common man because Rugby in spite of the hype is for middle/upper class people.
All the Irish Internationals in Cork come from 1 of 2 schools. CBC and PBC. These 2 fee paying schools provide OUR rugby representatives. I can not remember the last time a corkman from outside of these two schools went on to represent the rugby international team. Answers on a postcard please - it would be interesting.

This year in the munster schools cup final, CBC beat Rockwell a repeat of the final 100 years ago. (In Leinster, Blackrock won again for the one millionth time). Nothing is changing.

In Cork it seems that rugby hierarchy want us to support the teams but will not allow 'common folk' to play with the teams. There is no effort to set up a schools team from a disadvantaged area. Whereas there will be plenty of football teams in these areas who fill the sporting need.

I don't see the rugby teams, Munster and Ireland as representing me. Best of luck to them in their competitions but I don't feel that anybody can go from Knocknaheeny or Mayfield Community Schools and play for Ireland, unlike other sports.

This may be different in other parts of the country but in Cork the 'old school tie' brigade are very much in evidence.

I too from Cork, pretty much agree with all of the above.
However, I went to college in Limerick and it was only then that I saw young lads playing rugby on the streets, in the parks etc as opposed to football or gaa.
Just one point that I would like to add in relation to the above, I feel one of the main reasons Munster has been such a success from a level of supporter point of view is that it is a very well marketed product/brand. Also it has numerous individuals on the team who at least give the impression that they are from normal ordinary less privileged backgrounds like the rest of us (ie no private schooling etc etc) e.g POC, John Hayes, Flannery etc etc. The same could not be said for the Leinster team for example.