when Ireland became N Ireland??

**EalingGreen** · 25/03/2009, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by gspain

Jimmy Dunne went 6 years from 1930-1936 without getting a cap from the FAI. I'd need to research it properly and put the lineups side by side but I noticed an IFA team from the early 30's with quite a few southern players and none played for us in a game around the time. However I haven't done enough research to make a case.

The Cunninghams who owned Shamrock rovers also were involved in the selection committe for the RoI side. There are rumours that many Rovers players were picked to put them in the shop window. Tommy O'Connor caused consternation when he was picked ahead of Tommy Eglinton for Goodison in 1949. Rovers had home and away friendlies v Villa from 49-53.

I've dug into this a wee bit more, and it really is rather muddled, even murky.

It seems clear that in the early 30's, when the IFA was calling up players from all over Ireland, the FAIFS had a policy of only selecting players from the Free State. Yet as Harry Chatton shows, even that policy was not "set in stone":
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...y-chatton.html

As to whether the FAIFS also had a policy during this period of declining to select Southern players who were also willing to play for the IFA, that may also be broadly true, as possibly illustrated e.g. by Alex Stevenson:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/...stevenson.html

Yet there are exceptions to that "rule", too. One notable such case was Jimmy Kelly, who debuted for the IFA in Nov.31 and went on to become a regular in the team, gaining 11 IFA caps in total until 1936. Yet he also was capped by the FAIFS in May 32 and Feb.34, gaining 3 more caps for them in 1936.
Curiously, he never played internationally for either team after that year, despite being still only in his mid-20's, yet he must still have been a very decent player (at Derry City), since he continued to represent the Irish League in what were then very prestigious games against the English and Scottish Leagues for some time (also the League of Ireland!).
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/01/jimmy-kelly.html
Another such case was Paddy Moore, who made his debut for the FAIFS in 1931, gaining his 7th and final cap in 1936 (when he was still only 27, btw).
Yet in between, he played once for the IFA team, away to England in 1932:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/09/paddy-moore.html

I suspect both Associations may have been influenced by additional factors, so that apparently fixed "policies" may actually have been somewhat "fluid"!
One likely (ahem) seminal such factor was the fixture clash in 1931, when the IFA XI were at home to Wales on 22nd April, whereas the FAIFS XI were playing Spain in Barcelona four days later. I imagine that with travel logistics etc, it may not have been physically possible for any player who wanted, to play in both.
Eventually two Southern players who had previously represented the IFA, Tom Farquharson and Peter Kavanagh, opted for the FAIFS, but two more such players, Jimmy Dunne (as mentioned) and Harry Duggan, stuck with the IFA.
Farquharson had represented the IFA seven times from 1923-25. He debuted for the FAIFS in 1929, played again for them in 1930 and gained (only) two more FAIFS caps during 1931.
Kavanagh played once for the IFA in 1929, then twice for the FAIFS (inc.in Spain) in 1931. He was not capped subsequently by either, despite still being very young (b.1909), but that appears to be because after being a "boy wonder", his career nosedived soon after.
(Their cases indicate that the IFA probably did not discriminate against Southern players who also chose to play for the FAIFS, whether previously or concurrently, btw)
Meanwhile, Duggan who won 9 IFA caps between 1929-35, debuted for the FAIFS in 1927, wasn't capped again until May 35, got two more in 1936 then got his final (5th) cap for them in Nov.37, by which time he was 34.
As for Jimmy Dunne, he was capped 7 times by the IFA between 1928-32. In between, he was awarded his first FAIFS cap in May 1930, but was not picked again by them until 1936, which for so prolific a goalscorer, cannot have been a coincidence.
So both Duggan and Dunne may have "suffered" somewhat with the FAIFS for their opting for the IFA, but that may have been down to that specific choice they had made in April 1931, rather than a general policy of not picking any player who ever played for the IFA?

And another defining year in this story seems to have been 1936, when attitudes at the FAIFS hardened, so that they renamed themselves the FAI, and their team simply "Ireland" (vs Switzerland on St.Patrick's Day!). Further, they began selecting Northern players, as well as restoring Southern players who may previously have been overlooked due to their having represented the IFA. Such an attitude was presumably reinforced by constitutional change in 1937, and possibly also by a greater determination to qualify for the 1938 World Cup, following their initial attempt in 1934, and especially since the IFA were not taking part.

Of course, what the Associations wanted was not the full story - the players' attitudes will also have played some part. It might be expected that personal political preferences might have influenced some, especially when memories of Partition etc were still raw. Tom Farquharson was a fledgling activist in the War of Independence, eventually appearing to have been sent to Wales to keep him out of further trouble. Therefore one might expect his allegiances to have lain with the FAIFS.
Yet the aforementioned Jimmy Dunne, who chose the IFA over the FAIFS in 1931, actually came from a noted Republican family in Dublin, and was even interned by the Free State Government in the Civil War!

Of course, it may that then, as now, many footballers weren't much interested in politics, preferring instead just to play football. In which case the IFA might have been a more attractive proposition. For one thing, unlike the FAIFS, they regularly played England and Scotland, which were huge games, which would have been a prestigious "shop window" for ambitious young club players. They also possibly had more money than the FAIFS, which might have filtered down to the players in better arrangements and match fees etc. Also, there will inevitably have been less arduous travelling etc involved in IFA games (i.e. within the UK), whereas the FAI more frequently played on the Continent.
And the FAIFS's opponents will often not have been so "glamourous" as they would be today. For example, Netherlands football was amateur or maybe semi-pro in those days and not of a very high standard.
Plus, as mentioned earlier, the IFA did appear to make an effort with Southern players - possibly in order to make a point?

Finally, there is always the possibility of "local" factors. For instance, Southern players playing for Irish League clubs were, I think, paid better than in the LOI, so their clubs may have steered them towards the IFA. Ballybofey man Jimmy Kelly certainly played for a number of IL clubs, in particular Derry City. It might therefore have been simpler for him to play in Belfast than Dublin, or in GB than on the Continent.
As for those players who played in England, I've seen reference (Farquharson?) to pressure being put on them by the Football League not to represent the FAIFS, since they (FL) were in dispute with them (FAIFS) for a period.
And I'd guess the other three "Home" Associations backed the IFA were they could.

And finally, of course, personal considerations may have come into it. For example, players will occasionally have fallen foul of selectors and "Blazers" etc at one or other of the Associations. Or there may have been more venal factors, such as the Shamrock Rovers rumours you allude to - who knows?

It's certainly fertile ground for further proper research.

**EalingGreen** · 25/03/2009, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by Denis The Red

Good stuff, lads plenty of good info. You know your stuff alright.
Maybe this isn't the thread for it and I'm sure we covered it before(with gspain clearing up many things that time as well) but one way to solve the Ireland name thing..... olympic team.
I think it would be a good time to try something with the London olympics in a couple of years would be ideal.
It wouldn't have to be a preamble to an all Ireland league or team if people didn't sway that way. Just a thought.

No harm, DTR, but that suggestion would be opening a separate can of worms and pouring them all over the already difficult issue of a single Irish team generally.

For there is a huge dispute already in the UK over participation in the Olympic football in 2012. After decades during which the four Home Associations have shown no interest in Olympic football (indeed were somewhat hostile), pressure from the Government, the London organisers and IOC, plus financial rewards, means it has been decreed there MUST be a "Team GB" [sic] in 2012.
The FA has been smoozed into organising it (they've got a huge debt for Wembley still to pay back), but the SFA, FAW and IFA are dead set against getting involved.
This is because they fear that if other countries see a combined UK team entering the Olympics, they will demand the same for the World Cup etc, thereby leading to the end of the four nations' separate identities.
Worse still, that weasel Sepp Blatter has changed his mind over this at least three times, with his latest pronouncement being that it will threaten our independence.
So as I said, there will be a "Team GB", but the SFA/IFA and FAW will undoubtedly prevent their players from taking any part, so it will be 11 Englishmen only.
There is also an active supporters' campaign against this team, with the full backing of Supporters' Organisations in all four countries, i.e. including England fans (FSF).
Of course, such a campaign has nothing like the resources and PR machine of the 2012 organisers, but in conjunction with the other 3 Associations, they have managed to embarrass Lord Coe et al:
www.noteamgb.com
See also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3to7MoGHBE

**Denis The Red** · 25/03/2009, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Denis, the Olympic qualifying competition is the UEFA Under-21 championship. Since no All-Ireland team competes in that, none can qualify for the Olympics.

Yes, I know the criteria for it, is that FIFA or IOC sanctioned qualification?
My point is why not experiment with it. I understand what Ealing Green was saying about people's reservations but if it is understood to be a once off in this particular olympics what harm is it?
Maybe in a utopian world.

**EalingGreen** · 25/03/2009, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Denis The Red

I understand what Ealing Green was saying about people's reservations but if it is understood to be a once off in this particular olympics what harm is it?

No offence, but I don't think you have the first idea what I mean.

Quite simply, if we in NI (IFA and fans) do not want an all-UK team for 2012 for the reasons outlined in www.noteamgb.com etc, why on earth would we want an all-Ireland team in 2012 (especially since no-one in the UK has given a flying one about Olympic football for over three decades)?

If there is even the slightest risk that such a team would cause people in FIFA to question why we should have two separate teams e.g. in the World Cup, when we had only one team in the Olympics, then everyone who cares about the NI team will be absolutely dead set against it.

For whilst some ROI fans might be content to see their own team disappear, that is not something which any NI fan wants for his/her own team, whether for an all-UK or an all-Ireland replacement.

Clear enough?

**third policeman** · 25/03/2009, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

For whilst some ROI fans might be content to see their own team disappear, that is not something which any NI fan wants for his/her own team, whether for an all-UK or an all-Ireland replacement.

Clear enough?

Referring back to some previous threads, I am not really sure that this is about what football diehards want. I have said it before but football identities on this island are becoming increasingly polarised. I saw the TV interview with young Real IRA sympathisers in Derry wearing RoI football shirts, and its about as depressing as the sectarian posturing of some of NI away support on recent European jaunts. Compare and contrast with last Saturday's scenes at Cardiff or even the broad and inclusive support enjoyed by Ireland's World Cup cricket team.

I would be quite content to see my team disappear along with its flag and anthem if an All-ireland team was a means of building better cross community and cross border relationships. I totally understand and respect why some Unionists would be wary of such a move, but in my experience most of the people I talk to from that tradition are more than willing to give it a go. It's about more than football and football fans should not have a veto on it. I would love to see the some proper independent research on the proposition. If most people in the North were against it, then that's fine, but if it turned out that there was majority public support North and South for it then why not try it out in competitions like the Olympics and the Celtic Cup?

**Denis The Red** · 25/03/2009, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

No offence, but I don't think you have the first idea what I mean.

Quite simply, if we in NI (IFA and fans) do not want an all-UK team for 2012 for the reasons outlined in www.noteamgb.com etc, why on earth would we want an all-Ireland team in 2012 (especially since no-one in the UK has given a flying one about Olympic football for over three decades)?

If there is even the slightest risk that such a team would cause people in FIFA to question why we should have two separate teams e.g. in the World Cup, when we had only one team in the Olympics, then everyone who cares about the NI team will be absolutely dead set against it.

For whilst some ROI fans might be content to see their own team disappear, that is not something which any NI fan wants for his/her own team, whether for an all-UK or an all-Ireland replacement.

Clear enough?

Whoa, who rattled you cage?

First, I care about my national team as much or perhaps even more than you do yours, it's identity, history and it's future.
Second, I already said this would be a once off with no basis for a permanant amalgamation with a British team or an all Ireland one. Never mind what Blatter said or what FIFA want. If you're worried about the idea, which you clearly are, then don't support it. Like I said it's only a thought.
Third, I would like to see us represented in the olympics and the only way that would happen would be one Ireland with both associations on board.
I wouldn't lose sleep if it didn't happen.
But anyway don't fret too much as I don't see it come to fruition.

**Dodge** · 25/03/2009, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Denis, the Olympic qualifying competition is the UEFA Under-21 championship. Since no All-Ireland team competes in that, none can qualify for the Olympics.

Well thats not strictly true. AFAIK that the Republic u21s do attempt to qualify through the Euro u21 qualifiers but so far haven't. You'll probably remember the 1988 qualifiers where a LOI selection attempted to qualify. This team, like the u21s was administrated by the FAI

In general Olympic terms the official name of the GB team does not include the "& Northern Ireland" the comes after GB in athletics terms. Athletes from the 6 counties are generally free to decide whether they wish to represent Ireland or GB. Several examples in several sports last year. Coleraine rowing club had rowers represent both countries.

Theorethically if both countries have teams in the 2012 Olympics, under the agreement between the Olnpic Council of Ireland and the British Olympic Association, footballers could choose. In reality I'd imagine the FAI and OCI wouldn't rock the boat, and would select only from the ROI panel. Whether any NI footballers are good enough for the GB olympic team remains to be seen, but I'd imagine the manager/selectors would have no qualms in picking them.

**Sheridan** · 25/03/2009, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Well thats not strictly true. AFAIK that the Republic u21s do attempt to qualify through the Euro u21 qualifiers but so far haven't.

Yeah, I know, that's kind of what I was saying. There is no All-Ireland team in the qualifiers, so there can be no All-Ireland team in the finals. But there could be a Republic of Ireland side.

Incidentally, the Olympic football tournament is administered by FIFA. Eligibility is the same as for any FIFA tournament. Officially, the games are just Under-23 (FIFA) internationals.

**Dodge** · 25/03/2009, 6:43 PM

With 3 overage players. Suppose we'll never find out as we (Ireland) will never get there

The closest example of the British team coming together solely for Olympics is hockey where a unified irish team compete on the world stage with Wales, Scotland and England. However for Olympic hockey it is GB who plays (they must qualify as themselves though as England's (or the rest) results do not count towards their qualification (The Ireland results do count...)

Ireland only recently started to attempt to qualify as the Northern union had previously blocked attempts to qualify as they had supplied players to the GB side (and several have won medals).

**EalingGreen** · 25/03/2009, 8:51 PM