Can the eL ever be fully pro?

**pineapple stu** · 10/12/2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Sheridan
Here are the top non-league averages this season, which would appear to be a more reasonable target.

1 Hereford United (Nationwide Conference) 3799
2 Shrewsbury Town (Nationwide Conference) 3720
3 Aldershot Town (Nationwide Conference) 3291
4 Exeter City (Nationwide Conference) 3078
5 Chester City (Nationwide Conference) 2954
6 Woking (Nationwide Conference) 2343
7 Accrington Stanley (Nationwide Conference) 2191
8 Stevenage Borough (Nationwide Conference) 2070
9 Telford United (Nationwide Conference) 1991
10 Burton Albion (Nationwide Conference) 1975

Most of those clubs are fully-pro - eleven fully-pro teams in the Conference now, with Burton Albion looking to go pro in the next couple of years.

I think the Premier CAN be fully pro (a lot different from saying it definitely will get to that stage). The First Division is a different story though...

**Macy** · 10/12/2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by TommyT
This guy seems to have lost the run of himself. Fair play to Longford for what they've achieved in recent years but it has to be remembered that Finglas alone has the same population as Co Longford.

One comment and he's lost the run of himself? Hardly compares with Oily, Fat Pat, Keely etc etc

btw All I think he was suggesting is that it isn't really a national league at the moment. However, IMO it's up to the country clubs to change that on the pitch not through messing with the structures....

**Seanie** · 10/12/2003, 12:38 PM

I don't believe that the eL can ever go fully pro simply because of the size of this country. Fully pro means that the entire premier division would consist of full-time professionals - but I don't think this country could support ten full-time clubs.

Despite what you hear, the GAA cannot afford to go pro. Rugby has only four pro entities in the provinces.

If the eL did go full-time pro, then I believe we would end up with a situation where three or four clubs would only survive while the others would be left fighting for their mere existence.

BTW - I think it's slightly unfair to compare Irish and English attendances. Going to a match on Saturday afternoon is an age long tradition in England. Attendances don't flutter to the extent that they do here when the entertainment or form slips. Just because 3,000 watch a conference game and 300 watch a first division game here doesn't mean the conference is 10 times better. I totally believe that the eL premier is on a par with the second division while the first div wouldn't be far behind the third div. BUT in Ireland we unfortunately don't have the SATURDAY AFTERNOON PILGRIMMAGE.

**Xlex** · 10/12/2003, 12:42 PM

aye, we have pilgrimages alright, to the fooking pub on a Sunday for Ford Super Sunday...

**pineapple stu** · 10/12/2003, 12:45 PM

Is the Norweigan league fully pro??

Slightly off the point, but I agree with Seanie on the standard of the league. I watched Accrington v. Huddersfield and Burton v. Hartlepool on the BBC in the FA Cup - the standard of both games was woeful. Not just in terms of excitement or anything you could put down to the occasion, but in terms of general control, ability to play passing football, etc.

**TommyT** · 10/12/2003, 1:00 PM

Originally posted by Macy
One comment and he's lost the run of himself? Hardly compares with Oily, Fat Pat, Keely etc etc

I'm basing it on the times article after the cup win aswell. Also WTF was Mathews on going on about clubs having gates as 12% of turnover even Shels aren't that bad.

**James** · 10/12/2003, 1:06 PM

Originally posted by pineapple stu
Slightly off the point, but I agree with Seanie on the standard of the league. I watched Accrington v. Huddersfield and Burton v. Hartlepool on the BBC in the FA Cup - the standard of both games was woeful. Not just in terms of excitement or anything you could put down to the occasion, but in terms of general control, ability to play passing football, etc.

i was at the FA Cup game last saturday between Swansea and Stevenege Boro, good game and while the swansea stadium was crap (looked like tolka only with much much less seats), and the crowd prob only 5kish, i thought the standard of play was of a higher level from most of what i have seen from EL clubs last season, players were faster, first touch much better..

and that irish striker for swansea.. Lee Trundel, fupping great player.. ala georgie..

**Schumi** · 10/12/2003, 1:34 PM

Some of the figures Macy quoted above are nuts! A first division player on �900 a week is insane. That's �47,000 a year, at least a quarter of the gate receipts for the season for one player!

**Xlex** · 10/12/2003, 2:08 PM

Haylock is on a fair auld slice...

**Macy** · 10/12/2003, 3:10 PM

McHugh must be too, to have stayed at Harps...

**pineapple stu** · 10/12/2003, 4:48 PM

Originally posted by Schumi
Some of the figures Macy quoted above are nuts! A first division player on �900 a week is insane. That's �47,000 a year, at least a quarter of the gate receipts for the season for one player!

Standard wage at Bohs is a grand a week, tax free for most of them.

**�anna** · 10/12/2003, 5:24 PM

Don't think the whole league can. I think a 16 team premier of pro teams would be sustainable, with 2 or 3 regional feeder leagues instead of the first division, but there's no way all the clubs in the league as it is now could.

**pete** · 11/12/2003, 12:10 PM

I don't understand any of this arguement. The same people that say the league can't go full time pro are the ones saying want the 10 team league extended. Its going to be really hard to advance the league which is why its easier to do with 10 teams than 14 or 16.

IMO the league may never have 16 full time pro teams but 10 has a lot bettrer chance of progressing.

Rovers chairman was on radio the other day & said their weekly expenses are 300% their revenues. Shel$ were fleecing Rovers for 4k per match at Tolka (not incl Security).

I have no sympathy for $hel$ cos they have continued to buy success by enticing players from other clubs with large pay packets. More sympathy for Bohss but their average wage bill is too high. Fair enough paying crowe & Hunt good money but most of the rest of their squad are average players that they don't need to entice with money. �900 in the 1st division is insane money!

Changes needed immeadiately.
- League to agree a total wages cap to a percentage of turnover.
- Clubs to negotiate more realistic wages with players based more on promotion, relegation, competition wins etc... e.g. If club relegated if player stays got to take 30% cut in wages etc...
- Dublin clubs to seriously look at ground sharing. Its so expensive for land, labour etc... that IMO be impossible for 4 Premier standard grounds in Dublin!
- FAI to help clubs that help themselves.
- FAI to have a plan to progress the league - Genesis 2? i.e. more than just glib comments about "club making CL group stages in 5 years"

If the league can' aspire to professional clubs (as opposed to fulltime players) than we might as well all give up.

**tiktok** · 11/12/2003, 7:50 PM

on an earlier point 900euro a week probably doesn't correlate with 47000euro a year, i'm sure that'd only be over the course of the season....having said that, still too much considering what the clubs earn.

**Duncan Gardner** · 13/12/2003, 9:54 AM

Pete- a fair point, but there's a balance between cutting the number of 'elite' clubs to those that can sustain full-time football, and avoiding a closed shop. The IL has reverted to 16 teams this term- and no-one's suggesting Limavady United can salary everyone- or anyone- full time.

I watch a lot of non-League around London. Both Irish premier divisions are probably at a level slightly below the Conference.

**pete** · 15/12/2003, 3:11 PM

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I watch a lot of non-League around London. Both Irish premier divisions are probably at a level slightly below the Conference.

There is no closed shop & its called relegation/promotion.

I've seen a lot of highlights of IL football & eL premier is a lot better in recent years. I would not group the IL & EL Premiers together. Even heard suggestions at the weekend that IL 16 team division has been a huge failure cos not enough quality.

**Duncan Gardner** · 15/12/2003, 8:19 PM

Sorry, didn't explain fully. if the League of Ireland was fully profesional (ie, all squads full-time), I agree with you that it would have a relatively small number of teams. Maybe less than the present ten.

But...if this did happen, the gap between them and the rest would be huge, maybe unbridgeable. Like the rugby union premier in England, there would be pressure to abandon relegation-whether openly or effectively. Thus, a closed shop.

The reason I'm so confident about the higher standard at English conference level is down to the full-time status of most teams there. The players are fitter, so they'd usually beat Irish teams.

The Irish League won't gain more quality from expanding per se. But that last year's champions, the second best supported team, are in the bottom half in December* doesn't suggest the standard has fallen?

* I know, points deduction. But they'd still be miles behind the Ports anyway...

**Estar** · 15/12/2003, 8:40 PM

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner

I watch a lot of non-League around London. Both Irish premier divisions are probably at a level slightly below the Conference.

How can you explain Bohs beating a Bate Borisov team packed full of internationals? I'd like to see a conference team do something like that. Don't think there are any current internationals playing there either.

Of course the el can go full time pro, it boils down to money.

But I always respect Keely's point of view.

**A face** · 15/12/2003, 9:15 PM

Most of the arguments here are based on the current status of the league.

To be honest, if the standard improves, you'd hope that the attenence, sponsorship and interest would follow suite.

**Macy** · 16/12/2003, 7:48 AM

Originally posted by A face
Most of the arguments here are based on the current status of the league.

To be honest, if the standard improves, you'd hope that the attenence, sponsorship and interest would follow suite.

Possibly, but bohs haven't managed that route successfully. Chicken and egg, but I think you have to have the financial side in place before going full time - speculating hasn't worked for Bohs and Shels.... I still think Pats are prehaps taking the right route copying the Danish model - mixture of morning and evening training, with players having a couple of mornings off work a week - including Sunday morning 3 morning sessions, 3 evening... More of a half way house between our idea of semi-pro and full time...