Soccer International vs Rugby International

[The Fly]

I know this is unrelated to the thread title but...................

My father and brother were at the match, in the lower Cusack stand at about the try-line. (I got first choice on the tickets and choose France). Anyway, when it came to the anthems you can only imagine my father's/brother's consternation when GSTQ was belted out with gusto around them. This turned to shock, , horror, bewilderment, , dumbfoundedness, .................................................. ................when they turned round to find people in Ireland tops singing it.

P.S.........ran out of smilies.

[Maroon 7]

Yes but the international side gets 50K+ for all games including friendlies. That fixture wouldnt have even been held in Croker but for the razzle-dazzle fireworks. Most only went so they could say that they were there for the event.

From my recollection and very VERY limited knowledge of GAA, league games atrract very small crowds. (with the exception of finals.)

GAA league games can get very big crowds depending on how attractive the fixture is. Certainly I've been at league games with crowds of anything from 6K to 12K. Less attractive games might only get something between 1K to 2K. It all depends really. The recent Tyrone v Kerry league game had an attendance just under 12K I think.

[DeLorean]

I know this is unrelated to the thread title but...................

My father and brother were at the match, in the lower Cusack stand at about the try-line. (I got first choice on the tickets and choose France). Anyway, when it came to the anthems you can only imagine my father's/brother's consternation when GSTQ was belted out with gusto around them. This turned to shock, , horror, bewilderment, , dumbfoundedness, .................................................. ................when they turned round to find people in Ireland tops singing it.

P.S.........ran out of smilies.

(read with a cockney accent...) Well it is a quality tune mate!!

[SUB of the day]

....most Ulster fans would consider themselves British, hence when it comes to the "6 nations" their team would be Ireland, but GSTQ would remain their anthem, fair enough I suppose, but in my opinion a 7 nation tournament would reflect the actualities.This is probably one of the major reasons that I connect with the ROI football team, and retain a sense of detachment from IRFU 15.

[The Fly]

....most Ulster fans would consider themselves British, hence when it comes to the "6 nations" their team would be Ireland, but GSTQ would remain their anthem, fair enough I suppose, but in my opinion a 7 nation tournament would reflect the actualities.This is probably one of the major reasons that I connect with the ROI football team, and retain a sense of detachment from IRFU 15.

I live in NI and do know that strangely enough. I didn't mention it as...........well...........it's obvious.

On your second point, about the semantics of how many nations make up the tournament. By extension of your point, it could be 4, as the UK may constitute one nation. This would also reflect 'actualities.'

SUB, on your last point while obviously you are entitled to your view, I believe it to be wrong - for want of a better word.
The Republic and NI should not become distanced, rather they should become more engaged with each other. If people have a sense of detachment from the national rugby side, that's fine - if it is because it's rugby, not because the side involves a NI contingent in terms of players and support, and therefore reflects this in anthems/flags etc...
In the final analysis, this will lead us nowhere.

[SUB of the day]

Fair points all fly, but what was obvious to you, was less apparent to those who were shocked by lads in green singing GSTQ, hence the suitability of forums like this.Regarding the 6-7-4 nations tournament,the two teams from this island serve their fans and traditions well in association football.I feel an equivalent in rugby football would be more representative of those same ideals, as well as sparing us the dirge that is Irelands call.

[kingdom hoop]

The recent Tyrone v Kerry league game had an attendance just under 12K I think.

Yeah that was one of the few League games where the official attendance was announced. A lot of grounds don't or can't do it for the League. The attendance was 11,100 or so, around that anyway. Fairly decent crowd. Most of them were fairly quiet thankfully!

I think because there is little hype around the League people think the crowds are very poor, but they're actually fairly respectable most of the time, and occasionally border on impressively high if a county's going well or had a good year last year. Of course good attendances aren't true across the board, and for weaker teams attendances can be pitiful. Kerry probably offers a good contrast: the hurlers would be lucky to break into triple figures, while anything less than 5k would be a major surprise for a home football match.

Incidentally the Dublin - Kerry (regulation) League match has been moved from Parnell Park to Croker. I don't know what crowd they expect but it must be in the region of 30k to make it worthwhile. Will be interesting to see how many go when there are no fireworks! Gooch should be sufficiently dazzling to draw the crowd I suppose.

[The Fly]

Fair points all fly, but what was obvious to you, was less apparent to those who were shocked by lads in green singing GSTQ, hence the suitability of forums like this.Regarding the 6-7-4 nations tournament,the two teams from this island serve their fans and traditions well in association football.I feel an equivalent in rugby football would be more representative of those same ideals, as well as sparing us the dirge that is Irelands call.

It wouldn't have been as humourous to have pointed it out.
Obviously Unionists in NI will sing it as it represents them. That is fine but it is still initially 'shocking' and bewildering to see people in Ireland tops singing GSTQ. You have a gut reaction first, then you think about it later. D'ya know what I mean.

On your second point about the respective football sides, 45% of NI's population would support ROI. I live in NI and I am an Irish citizen hence I naturally support the team (ROI) that represents the nation of which I am a citizen, being no different from someone from say Dublin or Cork. The NI side, at least in fan support, represents almost wholly one side of the community in NI.
How could you possibly want to see this situation replicated in rugby? (see what I did there )

The problem with Ireland's Call is not the principle, it's the anthem's composition - i.e. it's crap.
GSTQ is the British national anthem, not NI's anthem. Hence the obvious problem with it, not to mention the equally pertinent problem of Irish citizens/people possibly identifying with it. In the words of a certain former political figure - Never!.......Never!.......Never!

[Cowboy]

The problem with Ireland's Call is not the principle, it's the anthem's composition - i.e it's crap.

Well said Sir on that point.

[jbyrne]

i have missed two 5N / 6N matches at home since 1985 and i have never, repeat never, heard or seen an ulster man singing gstq at an Ireland match against england. most, if not all, ulster people following the team are delighted to be part of the set-up. if they didnt they wouldnt bother traveling down to attend the games

[Stuttgart88]

Me neither jbyrne. Impressive record btw. Respect. I've been at dozens of RU internationals too but nowhere near that many.

I don't mind Ireland's call. It is what it is. It's a bit naff and artificial but the whole situation is a bit goofed up. I say live with it.

[DeLorean]

Me neither jbyrne. Impressive record btw. Respect. I've been at dozens of RU internationals too but nowhere near that many.

I don't mind Ireland's call. It is what it is. It's a bit naff and artificial but the whole situation is a bit goofed up. I say live with it.

Ya it's really not that big a deal is it

[Cowboy]

Ya it's really not that big a deal is it

Obviously it is for some people including myself who have strongly held opinions on the subject.

[DeLorean]

Obviously it is for some people includinmg myself who have strongly held opinions on the subject.

I'd be more concerned with what happens after kick off but to each their own

[Conormack]

Yes but the international side gets 50K+ for all games including friendlies. That fixture wouldnt have even been held in Croker but for the razzle-dazzle fireworks. Most only went so they could say that they were there for the event.

From my recollection and very VERY limited knowledge of GAA, league games atrract very small crowds. (with the exception of finals.)

true league games get nothing. . championship is were the crowds are.. the point im making is that instead of hoping to chip away at others sports, weres the fans who yrs back packed landsdowne out. . and the thousands that tried getting tickets for those games were are they now.

[Gather round]

On your second point about the respective football sides, 45% of NI's population would support ROI. I live in NI and I am an Irish citizen hence I naturally support the team (ROI) that represents the nation of which I am a citizen, being no different from someone from say Dublin or Cork. The NI side, at least in fan support, represents almost wholly one side of the community in NI.
How could you possibly want to see this situation replicated in rugby? (see what I did there )

Because it might possibly be an improvement on the present situation where the Ireland rugby team and IRFU

a) plays almost all its games, including low-key friendlies, as it has for 50 years or so, only in the Republic of Ireland. Despite availability of an adequate occasional venue in Belfast

b) treats its one game in Belfast during this period effectively as an away game (ie by not playing the national anthem)

c) as a result of a) and b) gives the impression that it's a team for the RoI only.

[backstothewall]

Because it might possibly be an improvement on the present situation where the Ireland rugby team and IRFU

a) plays almost all its games, including low-key friendlies, as it has for 50 years or so, only in the Republic of Ireland. Despite availability of an adequate occasional venue in Belfast

b) treats its one game in Belfast during this period effectively as an away game (ie by not playing the national anthem)

c) as a result of a) and b) gives the impression that it's a team for the RoI only.

Just back from Ravenhill tonight. Good win v Glasgow, up to 5th. Got soaked mind.

In my experience of the people who actually go to Ravenhill they don't care about any of the crap like that people have tried to make for Ulster, and just wish people could leave them alone.

As a republican I would prefer if they didn't fly the butchers apron, but like most I don't go there for a political protest, I go there to have a laugh and watch the game. I would much prefer seeing a home win to seeing it come down.

I went tonight wearing a Celtic scarf (not to cause a fuss, but because it was freezing) without a word said by anyone, which is how it should be. I doubt i would have got the same reaction at Windsor Park, which is a large part of why more and more nationalists are finding themselves at Ravenhill. It is a fairly neutral venue, and has a friendly atmosphere.


The anthem issue was just the latest example of the Ulster branch being used as a political football by people with no interest in the game. In my experience most rugby fans were happy to have Ireland in Belfast, and as Northern Ireland has no national anthem what else could the IRFU do? The game was hijacked by politicians trying to bring about the bizarre situation of Ireland using what is recognized by the rugby world as England anthem (UK anthem, blah blah blah I know, but ask yourself why Scotland and Wales don't use it). The game was going to be shown around the world, GSTQ was always a non-runner.

I doubt that Ireland will be back in Belfast for the foreseeable future for 3 reasons.

1. The sponsorship of Lansdowne means its unlikely Ireland will play any fixture outside there until the deal has expired.
2. Thomond Park is now a vastly superior venue to anything in the O6C
3. The politicians in the O6C who turned the Italy game into such a political football have left a bad taste in the mouth of the IRFU, who are unlikely to put themselves in that kind of position again for a generation. Ulsters rugby fans are the losers

If anyone thinks the IRFU have given the impression that Ireland is a ROI team only they are so unreasonable that they will never be happy with any 32 county team. The IRFU have bent over backwards to be neutral on these issues.

Football could learn a lot from rugby. The thing i enjoy most about rugby games is the lack of segregation. Having the opposition around you is great craic and although its unlikely it will ever happen accross the water, I would love to see the day segregation isn't necessary at domestic fixtures in Ireland.

btw, i would assume a large part of the reason people in ireland shirts were singing GSTG is the same as 2 years ago. With the playing of GSTQ your always going to get the odd idiot booing, but If 20,000 of us join in they are a lot less likely to be heard

[Cowboy]

So are you saying that people who object to "irelands call" have less regard for what happens in the game or that the issue of anthems is totally irrelevant in your opinion ?

I'd be more concerned with what happens after kick off but to each their own

[Cowboy]

May I ask (as you seem to be knowledgeable on the subject) how exactly the process of creating Irelands call came to be, was it NI political forces, players, or the IRFU themselves hat came up with the idea. Reason I ask is it seems that the national Anthem was fine for decades and i'm wondering what group or individuals objected to this? Open to correction but if memory serves Willie John Mc Bride always thought it was stirring to hear our Anthem before a game.

The anthem issue was just the latest example of the Ulster branch being used as a political football by people with no interest in the game.

[Gather round]

In my experience of the people who actually go to Ravenhill they don't care about any of the crap like that people have tried to make for Ulster, and just wish people could leave them alone

In my experience (going only occasionally, I prefer rugby league to union) and also discussing with others who go regularly, the irritation I referred to is widely shared by fans. Not stirred up by outsiders, as you suggest.

I doubt i would have got the same reaction at Windsor Park, which is a large part of why more and more nationalists are finding themselves at Ravenhill

I imagine you'd have got pretty much the same reaction at Windsor, ie nobody would have bothered you. Anyway, how does your second point follow from the first? Surely fans go to Ravenhill mainly because they, er, like rugby union, not because they imagine Windsor is unwelcoming to football fans?

as Northern Ireland has no national anthem what else could the IRFU do? The game was hijacked by politicians trying to bring about the bizarre situation of Ireland using what is recognized by the rugby world as England anthem (UK anthem, blah blah blah I know, but ask yourself why Scotland and Wales don't use it). The game was going to be shown around the world, GSTQ was always a non-runner

Variously: NI does have a national anthem; the IRFU could have played it; more generally, the IRFU could recognise the reality that its team represents two separate countries, and play neither of their anthems. If you don't like Ireland's call, ask Coulter to write something else.

GSTQ isn't recognised by the World as a purely English anthem. What does it matter what Scotland and Wales think? Northern Ireland and England disagree with them. As a basic courtesy other countries play the latter's anthem. Obviously you don't like it, but essentially GSTQ has mirror images in both the Soldier's song and Flower of Scotland- all three are about fighting one of the others.

Whether the game is to be shown around the World is irrelevant.

I doubt that Ireland will be back in Belfast for the foreseeable future for 3 reasons.

1. The sponsorship of Lansdowne means its unlikely Ireland will play any fixture outside there until the deal has expired

Which emphasises my point that it looks ever more like a team representing RoI only.

2. Thomond Park is now a vastly superior venue to [Ravenhill]

If all the games are going to be in Dublin, why mention it?

3. The politicians in the O6C who turned the Italy game into such a political football have left a bad taste in the mouth of the IRFU, who are unlikely to put themselves in that kind of position again for a generation. Ulsters rugby fans are the losers

I think it's more likely the stirrers referring to occupied six counties who've left the bad taste, don't you?

Ulster rugby fans, if seeing themselves as losers in the way you suggest, can lobby to change the game's organisation. My suggestion is only one possibility.

If anyone thinks the IRFU have given the impression that Ireland is a ROI team only they are so unreasonable that they will never be happy with any 32county team

I explained above why Ireland RFU is widely seen as a RoI only team. You clearly think that unhappiness with an all-Ireland team is unreasonable in itself; I disagree.

The IRFU have bent over backwards to be neutral on these issues

Disagree. They've made barely any effort to be neutral. If they had, the situation might be as detailed above.

Football could learn a lot from rugby. The thing i enjoy most about rugby games is the lack of segregation. Having the opposition around you is great craic and although its unlikely it will ever happen accross the water, I would love to see the day segregation isn't necessary at domestic fixtures in Ireland

Each can learn from the other, but the football tradition of away fans sticking together (which happens at levels well below international) isn't a bad thing.