I'm in two minds about the proposal ... it would work if it was attached to
an organised supporters club, but to suggest that in general only real/proper
fans stick to these rules would be a bit much.
It is bringing a bit of a Nanny State attitude to it which would not go down
well with a lot of fans who have been going to games for years and it does
give an impression that Ireland fans are great, non stop singing who vow not
to voice any other opinion than "Ireland are great". I know thats not the
intention but thats what will come across to people.
Not having a go Stutts, and fair play for coming up with the points
While I didnt boo at the last game, I have done in the past and it is more an
reflection of my own passion for the game and team, and my disgust at a
lack lustre performance not befitting the team or fans.
Kinda ties in with "We expect the players to understand the expense &
commitment it can take to support the team."
Just in case they dont understand, no harmin reminding them with a quick
shot across the bow.
Larry Be Wyse
www.acsportsimages.com
Yeah, I see the "nanny state" criticism and to a large extent the purpose of the post was just to have a rant & to get it off my chest. I personally find it worthwhile spelling out, even if it's only here, what I personally believe is the essence of being an Ireland football fan and to point out that there is a legacy and tradition to uphold that a vocal minority seem unaware of.
Originally Posted by Ash
Totally agree with both Ash and Stutts!
The line "essence..etc." is natural to the true fan (and they don't need the reminder/written charter) but may not be obvious to the minority who could damage our reputation
Tact is for people who are not witty enough to be sarcastic
I agree too but I wonder would a charter have any effect on the guys who behave badly since they seem not to have a basic grasp of what most of us are about.
Last edited by Cowboy; 18/02/2009 at 1:47 PM. Reason: typo
It used to work.
I remember looking at some of my fellow travellers to Euro88 thinking this is really going to kick off. I would have been very worried if I'd met some of them down a dark alley. However everyone bought into the well behaved Irish fans thing. These were the guys i ended up drinking with.
There is a new breed that haven't grasped that. Now I don't necessarily think they are looking for trouble but they wouldn't be found wanting if trouble found them. I saw them in Japan, Paris and Stuttgart. Nothing at any of the games but in pubs or on the street it wouldn't have taken much for trouble to start.
It would make it a lot less acceptable to boo which can only be good. I'm sure there was plenty of people at half time that heard the booing but wouldn't really have batted an eyelid.
Last edited by eirebhoy; 18/02/2009 at 8:48 PM.
Absolutely quality idea and sentiment, Stutts. Couldn't get to the game, however was disgusted to hear the boos at half time. Having to contend with the instant success/blame culture rubbish at club level (resulting in enraged arguments with similar "so-called supporters" on the last two Saturdays) the last thing you want to see is this attitude creep in (and worse still grow) at Ireland matches, especially when it goes against everthing that Irish fans have traditionally stood for.
If this is to be a goer, it will take unified commitment - however the "singing section" boys have shown what can be done and with the momentum that they have built there is no reason why it can't be achieved.
Don't mean to sound condescending, or like a tool (which I probably will), but i've worked in marketing and media for while and have a bit of experience on launching campaigns, so have been thinking about some cheap ideas to help progress it:
1) Fans Charter - Whereas this states what the vast majority of proper supporters are thinking, the common objection seems to be that it will be viewed as the older element trying to tell others what to do. With the additional issue that not everyone is going to subscribe to every point on the charter, meaning that we are in danger of isolating people further and minimising the overall buy-in. However this could form the basis of a larger movement which helps emphasise the "them and us" i.e. true vs fickle fan. Personally, I think that your "Twelth Man" idea is the over-riding factor which unites all the points and could form a more inclusive movement, which is essentially an extension of the singing section idea. The fans charter should be part of this - although maybe needs to be slightly more general, so as to not exclude other fervent supporters, who might disagree with elements of it.
2) Raising Awareness - There have been various good campaigns which have risen up from the terraces. One of note was the "love united, hate glazier" campaign which created a new football team - however whereas foriegn ownership has come to be the norm and accepted, there will always be a resistance to fickle fans. Some ideas are:
a) Green Twelfth Man T-Shirts - Perfect way to create immediate identification and no better form of advertising than ourselves. Football fans will always have a herd mentality (a possible reason why booing and bad-mouthing grows), however if they see a visible counter-culture at matches this level of intrigue could cause it to grow. Cheap to print - especially in bulk - creating a distinctive inclusive movement which is easy to join (not dissimilar from Holland which has a hell of an impact on the stands).
b) Advertising - Many options, although in your face, guerilla advertising which looks to grow the message as quickly and effectively as possible is probably the best. Hitting people when they are congregating in crowds at matches and in pubs/clubs. Big benefit of doing this is that it is cheap. Means of doing this are:
> Flyers - Possibly stating the Fans Charter and the intentions of the Twelfth Man movement - handed out by volunteers at games.
> Sticker campaigns - Very effective in the love united, hate glazier campaign literally covering the City - increases the frequency of people seeing the advertising and creates recognition of the message. A range of places are perfect for this, such as toilets in pubs, buses, bus stops, lamposts etc.
> Window stickers - For Cars and Windows on Pubs which could be a good way to get their buy in
> Print advertising - Is costly and might be preaching to the converted in certain publications - so not initialy recommended - unless the FAI would donate a page in the Programme
> Stunts - One-off stunts create standout which are PRable. One such idea that I thought was quality was United fans looking to fly a plane over Platt Lane during a derby with a tail banner taunting them about being a massive club. Might be costly - although not inconcievable. Other alternative is putting Twelfth Man t-shirts on the famous statues around Dublin on launch (Night before Bulgaria game?).
> Social Networking Sites - Facebook and Bebo are massive and best of all free. Could create different features on the page, such as songs section, away day information and best places to stay/drink etc, even down to local language tips and chants to help forge links with away fans. Can create applications on facebook to have as a badge of honour on your own facebook site which works well as part of a viral marketing campaign when sending it on to friends
> Dedicated Website - One site which helps unify the whole thing. Possibly an extension of foot.ie or one that has sections of it included (not technical in the slightest - so not sure if this is feasible?). Worthwhile, creating links to other Irish Sites to grow appeal. Website address should be on all stickers, adverts, t-shirts as a unifying call to action and place to act as the central location for what we are doing.
c) PR - Surely the FAI would be up for helping to co-promote this. If not, speak to the lads who sorted the singing section for tips. Fair play to them - an interview on Sky TV is priceless. Loads of options - radio phones ins, National Papers, 4-4-2 etc.
3) Growing the Movement - In order to broaden the appeal we should make use of the existing organisations which are already in place:
a) The Singing Section - No point in creating two separate groups when they are fighting the same cause. Instead an affiliation should be created as an extension of the progress they have made to keep the ball rolling and whip up more support. Not every one is a singer, but we are all supporters. The growth of the singing section into a bigger movement would be a sign of progress and an underlying feeling of discontent towards the fickle minority. Would possibly make more of a statement if there was an adjoining Twelfth Man section to create one massive section
b) Existing Supporters Clubs - Often the most fervent fans and ones most likely to convert others (football is a religion). If we could try to convince the top boys in the supporters clubs, they could help us in our effort to raise awareness and become advocates for the movement. Was a member of the Birmingham Irish Supporters Club during the last campaign who are a great example of a societal club with newletters and regular meetings etc.
c) Other Associations/Media - Should be a combined effort in conjunction with foot.ie, YBIG, The FAI, eircom league clubs and any other viable organisation to make it as co-ordinated and combined as possible. Whereas it would be wrong to prostitute it - this is potentially the sort of thing a corporate sponsor or media partner would be all over - however the last thing we'd want to do is taint it. Irrespective, it needs to be a "By the fans, For the fans" effort, rather than some larger organisation with ulterior PRable motives
4) Funding - Set it up as a not for profit organisation working off donations, yearly subscriptions or money from merchandise such as T-Shirts. In reality wouldn't cost that much to run.
As I said, these are just ideas - However, would love to contribute all I can if any of you are up for it. Appreciate that I'm standing up to be shot down, however couldn't really give a monkeys. I'm up for it.
Last edited by Manc Irish Wolf; 19/02/2009 at 12:14 AM.
Thats a fair point.
Excellent post, thanks
Wow Manc, give me time to read that again!
goodman manc, great post..i was at the meeitngs with the FAI and they would be willing to listen to suggestions, they were very accomodationg with the singing section in fairness to them
'How can I hate women, my Mums one!!!' Chris Finch
Great post, Manc.
These generic, groundswell approaches are what's required.
Under Brian Kerr's tenure there were ill-advised and highly forced attempts to cajole an atmosphere out of the crowd with giant flags and music greeting a goal which failed miserably.
Stutts post and yours above have far more chance of getting a foothold in the fans consciousness as its a "help the fans to help themselves" approach.
Quoting years at random since 1975
It'll be interesting to see what the Bulgaria game is like. If we're not playing well at HT I'd like to think that because of the importance of the game the crowd would be supportive. I'm hoping the booing was because some expected Georgia to be fodder. I anticipate a huge buzz of excitement before the Bulgaria game and it'd be great if football can rise up to compete with the hype that the rugby boys will generate if they're chasing the Grand Slam.
I'd say a problem with going on a big PR offensive is that, unlike the whole United/Glazier thing that Manc mentions, most don't even recognise that there's a problem to be overcome. However, problem or no problem, promoting a 12th man campaign of sorts would be inclusive and would send a subtle message to the fickle fans. I think Manc is spot on in isolating the "12th man" principle.
Away from the fans however, I have a huge bugbear against our media. I suspect this is in large parts due to the tabloid penetration that the boom years brought, but even the reputable press devote far too much time to red-herrings like Stephen Ireland at every squad announcement and too much time trying to stir sensationalist sh1t. Is it too much to ask for a match report in an Irish newspaper on an English game featuring a few Irishmen, to comment on the performance of the Irish, even if it's only an addendum to the syndicated match reports they buy? The RTE has a Premiership highlights show. Does the panel ever single out the Irish involved for scrutiny - positive or negative? This should be a regular part of the coverage IMHO.
Is there a platform to address this, or is there even any widespread opinion that it's an issue? I know it was said early on this thread that you can't expect the press to do anything other than try and maximise sales, but I think there's a broader responsibility and in my opinion highlights lazy & unimaginative editorial standards.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 19/02/2009 at 2:24 PM.
To be fair to the RTE panel, they usually do concentrate their analysis on any Irish players involved in their featured games. This is one of the reasons i would watch this show before MOTD.
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy which sustained him through temporary periods of joy."
Fair enough Mayo Bhoy, I don't see it very often and am glad to hear that.
While I completely understand your motives and agree with the sentiment - the media infuriates me regularly, the pinnacle being the portrayal of our most capped player as a muppet - we live in a free society and the media can say as they wish (obviously). I think it is more important to target the audience to which they pander. The best way to monitor the media is to ignore what you dislike, express your disgust through apropriate channels (boycott/email the paper/television, voice opinion here and hope somone takes notice, etc) and if we can create an environment where constant criticism, over-expectation and tabloid slander of individuals become unacceptable again, it should slowly amend itself. I would envisage the influence of the singing section and this charter as being among the means of change and eventually a shift in the media could be a major resultory effect.
The policing of the media should be informal. It should express the view of the masses as opposed to a group of, as some might see it, oversensitive supporters such as ourselves imposing our morals on the sporting coverage. It's a two laned system though, the people feed off the gutter press and it only exist because the people buy into it. We need to bring about change through effecting people at games. Granted, it is difficult to compete but the attitude expressed at matches and generally by fellow fans is far more influential than what you read or hear through the media. In the same way as booing is contagious, the same pact mentality means that people at games are swayed by their peers and progress can be made quickly as a result.
This is why it should be, at least initally, the charter of the singing section, not of Ireland fans as whole. In this way, we are not formally instructing anyone else how to act. We would be saying, 'this is what we abide to - do the same if you wish'.
I propose we get all forum members involved in the singing section to agree or disagree on this. If it is accepted then publish it for the Bulgaria games either in a flyer or as tee-shirts we wear and hopefully over time we can seek passively influence the rest of the crowd.
<insert witty remark>
i think the charter is a great idea, was very disappointed to hear the booing at croker. you never boo the lads.
on a separate point, if following ireland has nothing to do with club football, which it doesn't, could we add in a ban on wearing club football jerseys to away matches? just a thought......
on the singing, couldn't agree more with the comments re petty british-style chanting.
disappointed that Oro Se do Beatha Abaile didn't get an outing vs Georgia. more of this, less of that.
This is my problem with this whole thing. People suggesting bans etc. How on earth are you going toenforce it??? When away i always wear an irish jersey to the actual game but the nights beforehand i might wear my county GAA jersey or my Celtic jersey. Not wishing to reopen an old debate thats being done to death here but im proud of the Irish Celtic connection and the club's history etc and while i understand other people take a completely opposite view, fair enough, but no one will tell me what to wear or how to express my identity. I also follow QPR but wouldnt wear a club jersey on an away trip.
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy which sustained him through temporary periods of joy."
its not supposed to be "enforced" per se, but if it was IN the charter, people might read it and think, "actually, the club i support, LOI or otherwise, has nothing to do with me supporting ireland, so I won't wear it. and i won't think i'm a 'better' fan because i'm a LOI fan."
more important is the non-booing of the team and the maintaining the immaculate reputation of irish fans abroad - something that could be lost so quickly. - as pointed out by Stuttgart88
Well i only have 2 Irish jerseys and 4 Celtic and after a few days away a laundry is the last bloody thing im looking for, so anything green does me.
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy which sustained him through temporary periods of joy."
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks