Croke Park or Celtic Park

**Beavis** · 26/11/2003, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by lopez

We are back to square one here. Connery, the man who banged on about wanting an independent Scotland for so long then whinging how it took ages to get a gong from Brenda (aka HRH Da Queen). Scottish Independence? Don't make me laugh.

What about Tom Boyd?Did he lose respect among Celtic fans for accepting one himself?(what the f*** was he given one for anyway?I'll be next in line at this rate cos I helped an old man across the road once

)

[apologies for bringing it towards pro Celtic/anti celtic but it just came into head when Lopez mentioned it]

**Paddy Ramone** · 27/11/2003, 9:30 AM

Originally posted by Beavis
What about Tom Boyd?Did he lose respect among Celtic fans for accepting one himself?(what the f*** was he given one for anyway?I'll be next in line at this rate cos I helped an old man across the road once)

[apologies for bringing it towards pro Celtic/anti celtic but it just came into head when Lopez mentioned it]

I think quite a few people at Celtic FC have received honours from Royalty. The chairman for years was a Sir Robert Kelly who as I mentioned earlier was a proponent of a Great Britain side. Tom Maley, Celtic's longest serving manager was a staunch supporter of the British Royal Family. Maley was the son of a RIC man from County Clare. Billy McNeill, a Catholic of Irish descent and the son of a British soldier also received an MBE from the Queen. Current manager Martin O'Neill was also honoured for his services as captain of the British occupied Six Counties.

While is true that many Celtic and West of Scotland Catholics have strong Republican links (one of the founders of Celtic was an ex-Fenian Pat Welsh and Davitt was a fan), they are mainly unionist with a small 'u'. The Scottish Catholic Education Act recogising Catholic schools was introduced after the first world war in recognition of the Irish Catholics in Scotland who fought in that war.

**Paddy Ramone** · 27/11/2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by lopez

Scottish independence would be on the surface a disaster for NI. Most Unionists are of Scottish descent. Provided a Scottish parliament, government, military dictatorship (why not?) does not possess irredentist designs on NI which could lead us into dark territory, NI unionists will look instead to England, which is judging by the shirts worn by the less desirable elements of Unionism, already the case. Perhaps Duncan Gardens could enlighten us here.

I think a military dictatorship in Scotland would be unlikely

If Scotland were to become independent, it would make the Unionist population more isolated. It would mean the end of the "British Nation". Their best option would be independence for Northern Ireland sharing power with Nationalists. The changing demogaphics could see a 50/50 Catholic-Protestant population in Northern Ireland which would make an independent Northern Ireland more acceptable to Nationalists.

I think Scottishness could form more of bridge between the Catholics and Protestants of Scotland than Irishness or Britishness. Rangers for instance have a huge following amongst Gaelic speakers on the Protestant Western Isles of Lewis, Harris and North Uist while Celtic draw from support from the Catholic Gaelic speakers on Barra and South Uist. Also many Celtic supporters have roots in the Irish Gaeltachts of Donegal and Mayo. Scottish and Irish culture are quite similar, so the Catholics of West of Scotland would be easily absorbed into an Independent Scotland.

**lopez** · 27/11/2003, 10:19 AM

I have to agree with you here. One thing is voting for a unionist party so that the bricks don't come through your kids' windows. Another thing is accepting titles from the German lady while claiming to be Scottish, Irish or both.

What are these knighthoods about?

People seem to shaft or be shafted by anyone to get one. Do you get a big lorry load of Marks & Spencer vouchers with it? Connery got into such a fit, throwing his sporran out of his pram, because he didn't get one.

The only honour he should accept is to tell the world it's going back registered post if it comes through the letterbox. Pr**k!!

Speaking of the RC church, I was nearly sick when I saw a letter in the Irish Post (One of Britain's two weekly Irish community papers for anyone wondering) yesterday stating that Juan Pablo had given a gong to that bitch, Th*tch. The picture of her did the old c**t justice as she looked like the bride of Frankenstein. That's it. I'm off to join the Free Presbyterians.

**ramondo** · 27/11/2003, 11:26 AM

And this started with Croke Park v Celtic Park?

Jesus God, youse are all mad, no wonder anything ever gets resolved.

**Paddy Ramone** · 27/11/2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by ramondo
And this started with Croke Park v Celtic Park?

Jesus God, youse are all mad, no wonder anything ever gets resolved.

Back to original subject it has to Croke Park just for the simple fact that it is actually in a Ireland and not notionally in Ireland like Celtic Park.

**Rebel Bhoy** · 27/11/2003, 11:55 AM

Be fair now Raymondo, it escalated to this rather than degenerated into badness.
My two cents in this debate is that the GAA's rule 42 is, and will continue to be a major stumbling block. People were banned from the GAA for being seen watching or playing the 'Garrison game'. This rule was only lifted in 1972, so Association Football has come a long long way in Ireland in the 31 years since.
My feeling is that what was once an ideological opposition to association football is now an opposition based on protecting the GAA's own position. After all, the idea of 'foreign sports' was not an issue for the Collins Eubank fight at Pairc Ui Chaoimh, a sport whose rules are that of the very British sounding Marquess of Queensbury.

It would be fantastic to see the Irish football team playing at Croker as many of my English friends mocked Lansdowne and didn't even know we had such a fantastic facility until I pointed it out to them. Whilst Celtic Park is a fantastic place to watch football, and massive crowds and a fervent would be a certainty, the National team should be playing in the nations capital. Having said that, Croker is the only viable alternative whilst LR is out of action. As others have said, we are not a Micky mouse country any more so we should be able to patch something together.

**lopez** · 27/11/2003, 12:29 PM

I suppose I shouldn't be saying this, as the GAA thought police may be scouring this websight for someone to hold an auto de f� for,

but the Rep of Ireland Supporters Club in London plays soccer in a league alongside British club supporters teams. Where was their home venue until the wonderful weather took its toll? Tir Chonaill Gaels GAA ground, Berkeley Fields, Greenford, W London. On the 16 November they were supposed to play there but had to move to Perivale as the surface at Berkeley was not up to scratch. Their opponents that day? Rangers Supporters Club London.

Remember, the truth is out there! (cue weird music).

**Paddy Ramone** · 27/11/2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by lopez
I suppose I shouldn't be saying this, as the GAA thought police may be scouring this websight for someone to hold an auto de f� for, but the Rep of Ireland Supporters Club in London plays soccer in a league alongside British club supporters teams. Where was their home venue until the wonderful weather took its toll? Tir Chonaill Gaels GAA ground, Berkeley Fields, Greenford, W London. On the 16 November they were supposed to play there but had to move to Perivale as the surface at Berkeley was not up to scratch. Their opponents that day? Rangers Supporters Club London.

Remember, the truth is out there! (cue weird music).

I read in Tim Pat Coogan's book "Where Ever Green is Worn" about a Rangers supporter in Dumbarton who wore his Rangers shirt whle playing for the local Gaelic Football Club.

The GAA also organize compromise rules hurling-shinty matches with Camanachd assocition in the Highlands. Many of the shinty players would be Presbyterian Rangers supporters.

**ramondo** · 27/11/2003, 12:59 PM

Well, I may be leaving myself open to all sorts of abuse, but I'll stick my neck out and say the problem re: where the team is going to play has a very logical solution - Croke Park is big enough (with or without The Hill) to do the job - it's just down to the people involved to get together and sort it out. This is if the FAI are prepared to approach the GAA, I don't know if that will ever happen.

It needs just a little forward thinking; Rather than the endless backward looking in the past/'colonial' history/in my day/the good old days/how it really happened/ no you're wrong, this is how it happened irrelevant nonsense (in terms of the immediate problem) that gets regurgitated every time anyone tries to resolve this sensibly which muddies the water.

It's got a simple solution. If the GAA don't want soccer played at Croke Park (but they've no problem with rugby or anything else) they should just say so. Then other arrangements would have to be made.

**ramondo** · 27/11/2003, 1:05 PM

Sorry about the double post, but would the possibility of the Republic being in the same World Cup qualifying group as England have anything to do with the 'we can't discuss it now' attitude?

**Rebel Bhoy** · 27/11/2003, 1:14 PM

Trouble is, the horse would have bolted by then!
Not wanting to go off track too much, but could an Irish football crowd fill Croker? Bearing in mind our present mediocrity. What effect would it have on the team if they couldn't fill it?

**lopez** · 27/11/2003, 1:21 PM

Originally posted by ramondo
Sorry about the double post, but would the possibility of the Republic being in the same World Cup qualifying group as England have anything to do with the 'we can't discuss it now' attitude?

Well the GAA do give the impression of living in an ivory tower. Perhaps they think that, unlike the ordinary citizens of Dublin, they will be unaffected by a visit from 21C England's answer to the Black and Tans, so you may be right.

A ban on tickets to the scum - yeah, yeah they all aren't bad etc.etc.

- backed up with the sort of policing absent from 1995 (until after the damage had been done) should go some way to easing the worries of the GAA, as if they never have had crowd trouble at any of their games.

Originally posted by Rebel Bhoy
Trouble is, the horse would have bolted by then!
Not wanting to go off track too much, but could an Irish football crowd fill Croker? Bearing in mind our present mediocrity. What effect would it have on the team if they couldn't fill it?

Against England in a competitive match, I've no doubt it would, even if the surplus was made up of those wanting to see their heroes (not the ones in green).

**Paddy Ramone** · 27/11/2003, 1:50 PM

I don't think the GAA could bear the thought of English fans bringing Union Jacks into Croke Park (although they mostly fly St George's flags these days). The Union Jack is a combination of the English, Scottish and Irish flags and represents the suppression of the Irish people by the British.

I remember a few years ago they wouldn't fly the Australian flag at the compromised rules matches becuse it incorporated the Union Jack. A green and gold flag with a kangaroo and stars on it was used instead. I don't know where they got it from.

**Rebel Bhoy** · 27/11/2003, 2:09 PM

Wasn't there a few aussie flags with the tricolour where the butchers apron should have been as well? Unofficial ones of course.
In reality my thinking is that the biggest stumbling block to the use of Croke Park is the possibility of drawing the English. The match that would get the best attendance and procure the greatest revenue would have to be played at a ground with a lesser capacity. I can appreciate the GAA's reluctance to let England play there but that scenario would make us look rather parochial in the international community

**Macy** · 27/11/2003, 2:31 PM

I've had my say earlier in the thread, but some of the comments on here a very funny.....

make us look rather parochial

we are not a Micky mouse country any more

Have you all been out of the country so long? Do you have misty eyed dreams of the old country having progressed?

There's more money, but the parochial and mickey mouse attitudes remain.....

**ramondo** · 27/11/2003, 2:36 PM

I was afraid to say it.

**Paddy Ramone** · 27/11/2003, 2:45 PM

I don't think the GAA would relish the thought either of the "superprods" from "Norn Iron" visiting Croker with "Ulster Flag" which incorporates the British crown and has six-pointed star representing the occcupied Six Counties.

It's very easy for the 98% Catholic Nationalist GAA to be a 32 county organiztion and criticize the FAI for recognizing partition, but the FAI run a sport that both Nationalists and Unionists play and have to deal with the reality of a divided nation while the GAA live in their fantasy world of a an all-Gaelic United Ireland.

The FAI was set up by the 1920's in the hope that the GAA would end their ban on foreign games. The Belfast-based IFA was seen as being too pro-British and it was thought that that a Dublin-based mainly Nationalist organization in an Independent Ireland would be more acceptable to the GAA. Of course then the purist GAA then had the objection that the FAI were only a 26 county organization as well as the fact that soccer was the garrison game.

**Rebel Bhoy** · 27/11/2003, 2:47 PM

I was born and raised here in London so I suppose my view of Ireland is a bit dewy eyed like the WolfeTones song Flight of Earls. I guess that I was a bit optimistic because the GAA took on such a project like the redevelopment of Croke Park, a woonderful stadium... and....A hotel at Croker!!! thats surely forward thinking??