Séamus Coleman (D Everton b.1988)

[DeLorean]

No suarez isnt as good as them.

DeLorean, its completely subjective what Liverpool are aiming for, but I'm pretty sure for a long time now rodgers behind the scenes has been gearing them up for a title push. He will say something to the media - like today where he leaves it open ended with the ambition statement - but they aren't really competing with Everton(8 points behind with 1 game in hand), perhaps spurs, but i think they are competing for at least at the very least top 4, not just top 4 with everton and spurs. They are 4 points off the top hardly settling for staying in 4th at 4 points off the top!!!

You cannot say that Liverpool with american owners who have invested quite heavily already and liverpool having invested more than utd over the last few years, and way more than everton have the same ambition as Everton. Thats plain wrong. Everton 19th liverpool 5th http://www.transferleague.co.uk/leag...e-seasons.html

As mentioned in an earlier thread Liverpools purchases are way ahead of UTDs.

Liverpool's ambition for quite a while has been to get into the top 4. Granted they're probably playing above themselves this season and, without the resource stretching distraction of cup competitions, have an outside chance of the title. That is 100% bonus territory though and certainly wasn't anything near the ambition at the start of the season.

They spent heavily in the January that Dalglish took over but since then have been fairly slow enough to flash the cash, getting financially outmuscled by Tottenham for players like Clint Dempsey and Christian Eriksen. I accept that Everton's spending power is less again.

Liverpool finished 6th, 8th and 7th in Suarez's previous three seasons. To apply the logic you did with McCarthy, he should have been gone well before this season even came around, that's all I was getting at really.

I agree Suarez isn't as good as Messi or Ronaldo, but he is probably the best player in the EPL... a pretty pointless barometer to be setting McCarthy's early Everton performances by.

[paul_oshea]

McCarthy has only been at Everton 1 season. Suarez is at a team who are realistically pushing for at the very least top 4, they hadnt acheived that previously hence lots of talk and transfer speculation and transfers put in from Arsenal for example. Mccarthy had one solid offer of 10 mil plus add ons and he was sold!! There is no comparison DeLorean whether you look at the teams aims or the money spent or whatever.

And you completely missed the point, I was emphasising what excellent really means and how is bandied about without any realtivity really. If you score excellent in a maths test its probably 90%, probably about 4% achieve that result. Your mother might of course tell others that if you acheived 70% that you had done excellent in your maths exam.

[DeLorean]

You're missing the point, which dressed down is... just because you're playing for an average team doesn't make you an average player.

Suarez wasn't at a team who were realistically challenging for the top 4 the last three seasons... yet he still remained playing for them, and still remained an excellent player.

McCarthy has been linked with Man Utd, Arsenal and indeed Liverpool repeatedly over the years but it's doesn't make him any better or worse than he is.

[paul_oshea]

That was the original point which I disagreed with many posts back, and I understood what you were trying to say but I don't agree.

Liverpool spent big, and you would expect them to have performed better but for continuity of managers and a few other factors(one being poorly managed transfers and big money on awful players), it has nothing to do with playing for average teams, my original point(a few threads back) was that he would get a move away if he was trully excellent, within a couple of seasons, which is why Suarez was the subject of many bids from top teams. He hasn't had that yet, and the only concrete one for wigan came from Everton and he was sold, no top 4 team.

Linked means nothing, none of those teams came in for him, Arsenal a top four team consistenly over the last few years, put in a concrete bid for Suarez. Thats the point here, whether or not he reamined at liverpool is irrelevant!

We agree in one thing, that just because you are playing at an average team doesnt mean you are average, but it does mean you will get picked up by a bigger team if you are better than average!

[DeLorean]

Liverpool actually came in for McCarthy as it happens... but he chose Wigan (and won an F.A. Cup compared to Liverpool's one League Cup in the same period)

I'm not even sure what we're discussing anymore. I agree that Suarez is significantly better in his own field than McCarthy is in his. I agree that Liverpool having more spending power than Everton. I don't agree that Liverpool's ambition has been significantly higher than Everton's over the past few years though and it definitely hasn't been higher than Tottenham's.

Just out of curiosity - what other bids, other than Arsenal's, was Suarez the subject of?

[paul_oshea]

When did Liverpool come in for McCarthy? Was it speculation or was there an actual bid turned down?

Did you read the Henry article? read that compared with anything kenwright has said, his biggest ambition is to sell the club to a buyer who has the money to make them ambitious! Ok thats a bit frivilous. BUt you cannot compare the ambitions of liverpool and everton, discussion has moved on somewhat but it relates to the same original point thats why

Anyway we will agree to disagree you believe liverpool and everton have the same ambitions i do not, I believe that if McCarthy is as good as everyone is making out then he should be at a club playing in the CL in a couple of seasons, and if not then he isn't as good as everyone thinks he is.

Chelsea were making a bid for him. Although they put that off until the summer I think.

[Crosby87]

Didn't Real bid for Suarez at some point?

[DeLorean]

I thought he had the choice to join them but chose Wigan to get first team football. Could be wrong though but he definitely turned them down after a trial when he was 16 to go back to Hamilton.

When two teams are seeking the top four then, yes, I can compare their ambition, regardless of money spent/wasted. I'll agree to disagree though

So there were no other bids for Suarez then? "Many bids from top teams" was actually just one speculative offer from Arsenal?

[DeLorean]

And you completely missed the point, I was emphasising what excellent really means and how is bandied about without any realtivity really. If you score excellent in a maths test its probably 90%, probably about 4% achieve that result. Your mother might of course tell others that if you acheived 70% that you had done excellent in your maths exam.

Only saw this add-on afterwards.

I got your point, but basically you're saying that if McCarthy isn't performing as well as the best player in the league, then his performances shouldn't be considered excellent. Fair enough if that's the way you want to monitor his career/progress. Oh, and my mother would be absolutely correct in bragging about my excellent 70%... unfortunately I never really gave her the opportunity!

[paul_oshea]

I thought he had the choice to join them but chose Wigan to get first team football. Could be wrong though but he definitely turned them down after a trial when he was 16 to go back to Hamilton.

When two teams are seeking the top four then, yes, I can compare their ambition, regardless of money spent/wasted. I'll agree to disagree though

So there were no other bids for Suarez then? "Many bids from top teams" was actually just one speculative offer from Arsenal?

How many 16 year olds are brought to clubs that means nothing DeLorean, they are shipped out just as quickly if things dont go right, its too early to know at that stage.

No Madrid and Chelsea( i thought they had bid for him last summer but I can't see an actual concrete bid - didnt liverpool improve the terms of his contract because of perceived bids and to stave off interest went arsenal went public?) did show interest DeLorean, perhaps they didn't bid though but I thought they had, sounds like both are going to reacquaint themselves this summer. Its at least more interest than some speculation about a 16 year old kid.

Ill still can't see how you can try and make out the ambition of Liverpool and Everton is the same. But ill leave it at that and happy to agree on disagreeing

No, I'm not saying that they have to be as good as THEbest in the league, but to describe his performances as excellent then you would have to say that he is definitely one of the best, or at least performing as one of the best!

[DeLorean]

So paper talk linking McCarthy to United, Arsenal, Chelsea, etc isn't worth the paper it's written on but similar paper talk with Suarez is as good as an actual bid?

I agree about the 16 year old thing... I wasn't using it to enhance my debate!

[paul_oshea]

No you are probably right it isnt. As I said i thought there were bids in from Chelsea and Real, and chelsea around the time but lower than arsenals but i cant find anything all that comes back is chelsea lining up summer bid!

[DeLorean]

If Madrid genuinely wanted him we'd have absolutely known about it, granted they were regularly linked. They're not very subtle when they really want a player. The recent speculation surrounding Chelsea's summer intentions, I think, derived from the fact that Mourinho said he wouldn't buy a striker in January, that the one he wants isn't available until the summer. As far as I know the press put two and two together and came up with Suarez. I have also read that it might be Cavani.

There'll surely be big interest anyway in the summer given the season he's having and WC to follow.

[Crosby87]

I thought Mourinho was referring to Kevin Doyle?

[SkStu]

Anyway we will agree to disagree you believe liverpool and everton have the same ambitions i do not, I believe that if McCarthy is as good as everyone is making out then he should be at a club playing in the CL in a couple of seasons, and if not then he isn't as good as everyone thinks he is.

That doesn't make sense to me at all. Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

Any player is only playing as well as people think he is if his team qualifies for the CL or he plays for a team that will qualify for the CL within a couple of seasons?

Bit weird.

[Crosby87]

Yeah, so can that club be Everton POSH? I think he might be saying if Big Mac is going to be one of the best at his position in the whole of the EPL (or already is as some on here think) then he should be able to get Everton over the hump, into the CL and bring glory to all. If they can't get over the hump, it was b/c he couldn't get them there. Crackbird for all.

[paul_oshea]

Top players play for Top clubs is probably the bottom line. I don't think Everton are a top club. And if McCarthy is as excellent as you are all making out he is then in a couple of seasons I would expect to see him at a top club. I think its pretty obvious what I'm saying, and I think I am basing it on pretty simple metrics/criteria that work across the board in any profession really!

[SkStu]

Top players play for Top clubs is probably the bottom line.

I don't agree at all. It just isn't as black and white as that in my opinion. Excellent, world class, top players often play at a lesser level than the top clubs and, similarly, the top clubs don't always have 22 excellent, world class, top players.

McCarthy is clearly an excellent player in a very good team. A team that is clearly on the up and playing a superb style of football. Any objective viewing of their games this season supports that analysis. Is he a world beater yet? No but I don't think anyone is saying that.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't agree at all. It just isn't as black and white as that in my opinion. Excellent, world class, top players often play at a lesser level than the top clubs and, similarly, the top clubs don't always have 22 excellent, world class, top players.

McCarthy is clearly an excellent player in a very good team. A team that is clearly on the up and playing a superb style of football. Any objective viewing of their games this season supports that analysis. Is he a world beater yet? No but I don't think anyone is saying that.

McCarthy is three years younger than Mirallas and is playing in a position where it is a lot tougher to stand out. Mirallas could be a star at this World Cup and is playing at Everton, so I don't see why it would hold McCarthy back.

[SkStu]

Excellent second half from Coleman. You know what it was like by now.

His first half was a bit sloppy, like Evertons performance.