S�amus Coleman (D Everton b.1988)

**A N Mouse** · 10/12/2013, 8:39 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

The Cup Final win was brilliant, but your statement still doesn't cut the mustard, not by a long shot. Wigan got regularly tanked by the big teams in the EPL. In 3 seasons against the top 6, played 36 W 5 D 6 L25.
It's an okay record but would it surprise you to be informed that Wolves who finished below Wigan 2010/11, have a much better record against the top 6 teams in that season?
Wolves W4 D1 Wigan w1 d4. Sunderland had a better record than them in 2012/13. Only in one season did Wigan have a slightly better record than their closest team in the table.
I don't think you have offered an example of Martinez's strengths as a manager, well naturally, seeing as your example is not supported -- cough ... cough - in the real world .
In the 2011/12 season where he won those big games against Man U and Arsenal to survive, his team were muck around end of December/January. They couldn't play the football he wanted them to play, they were doomed, no hope. He persisted (supportive board) and got them back on track in February. IMO, his crowning glory as a manager at Wigan came late in that season, was still playing their game in the most pressurised of situations against Arsenal & Man U, and prevailing. He probably could have managed to keep them up in the last season, but I'd say the cup run took its toll. He has a much better squad now to work with, I can see him staying in the top 6.

Or you could compare Wigan in the four seasons before Martinez - during which time they may have even finished in the top half of the table - with his reign.

**Charlie Darwin** · 10/12/2013, 8:45 PM

That's not really a fair comparison considering Bruce had better players and more money to work with, plus he didn't have the same pressure to sell his best performers.

**paul_oshea** · 11/12/2013, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by geysir

The Cup Final win was brilliant, but your statement still doesn't cut the mustard, not by a long shot. Wigan got regularly tanked by the big teams in the EPL. In 3 seasons against the top 6, played 36 W 5 D 6 L25.
It's an okay record but would it surprise you to be informed that Wolves who finished below Wigan 2010/11, have a much better record against the top 6 teams in that season?
Wolves W4 D1 Wigan w1 d4. Sunderland had a better record than them in 2012/13. Only in one season did Wigan have a slightly better record than their closest team in the table.
I don't think you have offered an example of Martinez's strengths as a manager, well naturally, seeing as your example is not supported -- cough ... cough - in the real world .
In the 2011/12 season where he won those big games against Man U and Arsenal to survive, his team were muck around end of December/January. They couldn't play the football he wanted them to play, they were doomed, no hope. He persisted (supportive board) and got them back on track in February. IMO, his crowning glory as a manager at Wigan came late in that season, was still playing their game in the most pressurised of situations against Arsenal & Man U, and prevailing. He probably could have managed to keep them up in the last season, but I'd say the cup run took its toll. He has a much better squad now to work with, I can see him staying in the top 6.

He had a win percentage in 2 seasons of 25% against top 6 opposition, to me thats pretty decent for a team like wigan. Against top half opposition again in the same 2 seaons he had 20 and 25% win ratio against top half oppossition. Similarly over both seasons his win and draw record was about 33%, so 1/3 of all games played against top 6 was a favourable result, to me thats pretty decent, I think in his last season he focused on winning a cup, the FA cup and everything went into that(granted their run wasnt that difficult), so id take 2/3 seasons-out of a possible 4, the last being the one they got relegated but won FA cup, so he wins a reprieve from me on that one - and the above isnt that bad, his overall record though was a bit of a suprise, I thought the draw/losses would be a lot closer, his loss ratio was quite high.

**geysir** · 11/12/2013, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

He had a win percentage in 2 seasons of 25% against top 6 opposition, to me thats pretty decent for a team like wigan. Against top half opposition again in the same 2 seaons he had 20 and 25% win ratio against top half oppossition. Again to me thats pretty decent, I think in his last season he focused on winning a cup, the FA cup and everything went into that(granted their run wasnt that difficult), so id take 2/3 seasons-out of a possible 4, the last being the one they got relegated but won FA cup, so he wins a reprieve from me on that one - and the above isnt that bad, his overall record though was a bit of a suprise, I thought the draw/losses would be a lot closer, his loss ratio was quite high.

You do realise that I'm well used to a certain poster picking and choosing stats to support their argument and funnily enough you were the one other poster who appreciated the guile of the art of such deceit

Of course Paul you can ignore one season and select just two seasons out of 3 to slant figures to give you a decent looking 25% when 3 seasons gives 16% win ave. And you can hoop jump and waffle around the rest.
But unfortunately we just can't pick and choose which stats to select, that's just not a rational approach. And considering that other teams in same zone did better than Wigan against the top 6 teams, no one in their 'right mind' can conclude that Wigan had always performed well against top teams, not after facts have been examined.
Compared to the closest team to Wigan in the EPL table, we can conclude that Wigan on one season performed marginally better against the top 6 teams and in two other seasons actually did worse than their neighbour in the table.
Overall conclusion to my mind, is that Martinez's qualities as a coach can not be appreciated by statistics because a team at the bottom have glaring obvious issues at different stages of the season, which statistics just do not allow for.

We have to look at many other factors, but one claim can be ruled out emphatically, that Wigan somehow performed better against top teams but struggled against lower teams. On occasions they performed better against top teams but with no more frequency that their neighbour team in the table.

**Stuttgart88** · 11/12/2013, 12:56 PM

I don't know what this argument is exactly, but on basis of recent evidence Martinez is a really good coach and is able to get a group of good players playing to potential in a very cohesive team structure and playing a good brand of football.

**paul_oshea** · 11/12/2013, 1:17 PM

THe only bit you are missing there, and its the kernel of our discussion , and also the most important final outcome: results. Geysir pointed out that his record against top 6 wasn't as good as I made out, although I didn't actually make out anything, but he pointed out the amount of wins.

Geysir I appreciated rightly, but there is no guile of art, maybe just using your time accordingly, something I don't have enough of to do

I will admit I did think though he had a better win ratio than he did.

As you suggested I shouldnt use 2/3 seasons you cant compare teams out of 1 season either. So the wolves comparison is not fair and shouldn't be used. I stick by that 2/3 seasons he did a decent job, he seems to have a way with 1/3s

but..overall its about 62.5% of his losses came from top half(i didnt work out of 47% etc), so about 37.5% of his favourable results came against top half position, that sounds like he had Wigan performing at almost as good as the bottom half. Surely you would expect that he would pefform much better against bottom half(say 75%), and about 25% against bottom half.

**geysir** · 11/12/2013, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

THe only bit you are missing there, and its the kernel of our discussion , and also the most important final outcome: results. Geysir pointed out that his record against top 6 wasn't as good as I made out, although I didn't actually make out anything, but he pointed out the amount of wins.

Geysir I appreciated rightly, but there is no guile of art, maybe just using your time accordingly, something I don't have enough of to do

I will admit I did think though he had a better win ratio than he did.

As you suggested I shouldnt use 2/3 seasons you cant compare teams out of 1 season either. So the wolves comparison is not fair and shouldn't be used. I stick by that 2/3 seasons he did a decent job, he seems to have a way with 1/3s

but..overall its about 62.5% of his losses came from top half(i didnt work out of 47% etc), so about 37.5% of his favourable results came against top half position, that sounds like he had Wigan performing at almost as good as the bottom half. Surely you would expect that he would pefform much better against bottom half(say 75%), and about 25% against bottom half.

Martinez had not got Wigan performing better against the top 6 clubs than other teams close to Wigan's predicament managed to do. He had no special magic to work with Wigan in those games.
He has definite skills as a coach and it looks to me that those skills work better with a better squad like he has now.
His weakness at Wigan was in not getting them to play good as a team more often. This applies in general, to all games they had.
Some other coaches might have been able to develop a more stable team at Wigan after 2 or 3 seasons in the EPL, Martinez didn't. His time at Wigan showed great potential but ultimately the picture was mixed.

FWIW, to compare, I think Bruce has done exceptionally well at Hull, virtually overhauling a standard championship team, spending about �13m in total and showing good judgement in getting the type players who he thinks can play the game he want the team to play. It will be interesting to see how Bruce gets on there over 3 seasons.

**paul_oshea** · 11/12/2013, 2:37 PM

Bruce has done the same many times over, but then struggles after a few seasons in charge. Perhaps its just that players become more complacent, Swansea are the only team who have been able to keep mid-table that have come up over the last few years.

I think Martinez got them playing the way he wanted(and has done the same at Everton but inherited a better Defence), but a poor defensive record created mixed results, he lacked 1 or 2 players that perhaps would have given them a defensive solidity that seemed to be lacking, I do remember some big drubbings at Chelsea and spurs, i also think they condeded nearly 80 goals one season and something like 70 another. I remember Martinez complaining about defenders all getting injured around the same time especially the season they got relegated. I reckon had they a solid Defence they would always have acheived around mid to mid-lower table, perhaps that was Martinez' flaw, he was more focused on the playing side of the game, than being solid defensively. That elusive flawless manager still exists

.

**tricky_colour** · 14/12/2013, 4:29 PM

Goal today, had put in a couple of poor crosses before that, the first one not really his fault as he was playing an over-hit ball,
didn't see the second, but as it was not long after the first I was thinking in danger of being dropped, I guess the goal will change that
though.
Everton made a few bad passes but 4-1 in the end so I expect they will be happy overall.

**SkStu** · 15/12/2013, 2:36 AM

Watched the whole game this morning. They actually played very poorly though Coleman was quite good. I think their performance today showed how important McCarthy is to their game.

**Charlie Darwin** · 15/12/2013, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by SkStu

Watched the whole game this morning. They actually played very poorly though Coleman was quite good. I think their performance today showed how important McCarthy is to their game.

A lot of the comments on the Guardian made the same point - they're not the same side without him. I think Gibson's injury was a real blow for them - the gameplan relies on there being two defensive-minded midfielders, and Osman just upset that balance. Martinez likes to have a small squad, but he may have to bring in another defensive midfielder for the second half of the season and that could threaten Gibson's place.

**tricky_colour** · 22/12/2013, 4:25 PM

He just scored an absolute cracker for Everton!!!

The best goal I've seen him score I would say, he was giving Swansea a lot of grief running at the defense earlier but this time
he had a crack at goal and it went in the near post.

Swansea just equalised though.

**TheOneWhoKnocks** · 22/12/2013, 4:36 PM

He's already equalled his goalscoring tally from the 2010/2011 season. He didn't score any League goals in the 2009/2010, 2011/2012 and 2012/2013 seasons, so today's goal was his 8th ever PL goal and allied with all of the clean sheets Everton have been keeping, Martinez is really getting the best of him.

There is a glass ceiling in terms of Irish players signing for the biggest English clubs but surely a team like Tottenham, Liverpool or a big European team will come in for him if he keeps this form up. Maybe even Man Utd at a push. Baines is pushing 30 and won't have much resale value. Perhaps that and the lower asking price would make Coleman a more attractive proposition?

**Ol� Ol�** · 22/12/2013, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

He's already equalled his goalscoring tally from the 2010/2011 season. He didn't score any League goals in the 2009/2010, 2011/2012 and 2012/2013 seasons, so today's goal was his 8th ever PL goal and allied with all of the clean sheets Everton have been keeping, Martinez is really getting the best of him.

There is a glass ceiling in terms of Irish players signing for the biggest English clubs but surely a team like Tottenham, Liverpool or a big European team will come in for him if he keeps this form up. Maybe even Man Utd at a push. Baines is pushing 30 and won't have much resale value. Perhaps that and the lower asking price would make Coleman a more attractive proposition?

The tabloids bandied Arsenal about as a link, stating he could replace Bacary Sagna if he leaves on a free.

It's amazing to see the progression year-on-year. First, he was played on the wing and his attacking improved. Then, his defence needed to improve and positioning etc. and he has certainly done that. Now, he's adding goals.

He's turned into a top class right-back. He seems such a humble, grounded and decent individual whenever he's interviewed and also very shy. That makes his current success even more brilliant.