Public service pension levy announced

[pete]

But the union side has constantly highlighted the need for an overall plan, Going back to the start of the sham talks at the end of January. Unless this is some kind of wind up to ignore the main thrust of the Union side of the debate?

The likelihood is this is just a strike about the pension levy so why dress it up as a political protest?

[Dodge]

The likelihood is this is just a strike about the pension levy so why dress it up as a political protest?

because thats what strikes in public service are?

[Macy]

The likelihood is this is just a strike about the pension levy so why dress it up as a political protest?

Because it is about the wider issues? Private sector unions are also balloting. SIPTU is 2/3's private sector and is balloting on action.

[Bald Student]

The junior doctors issue goes back a lot longer. This would be happening whether there was a pension levy or not - it predates it.

I don't know if that fully squares the circle. If the doctors have some pay dispute pre-dating the pension levy to add to the current dispute then it remains the case they they're protesting for both less money and more money at the same time.

That contradiction seems to be present in the other groups of workers as well and it makes me skeptical of the claim that the better paid workers are willing to take a bigger cutback.

If I see doctors, teachers and nurses at the protest shouting that they're paid too much and demanding lower pay, then I'll accept that I was wrong to be skeptical of them but for the time being I'm keeping an open mind on the topic.

[Dodge]

but for the time being I'm keeping an open mind on the topic.

really?

[Bald Student]

really?

I know which way I expect the matter to fall but I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. I think there's a difference between having an open mind and having an empty one.

[NeilMcD]

Possibly,
I don't think in terms much more complicated than more money or less money.

SUrely this is your problem in a nutshell.

[Bald Student]

SUrely this is your problem in a nutshell.

Possibly it is but I don't think the hole in the budget can be closed by renaming payments.

[pete]

We got our pension reports today for 2008. Basically every cent that both myself & employer put in is gone. i.e. total sum at end of 2008 is same as end of 2007. Guaranteed pension sounds good now.

[Dodge]

Guaranteed pension sounds good now.

Always sounded good to me

[passinginterest]

Always sounded good to me

Exactly, there's a good reason most of us civil servants chose this career path and it involves job security and pension benefits. Now our foresight is frowned upon, no win situation really.

[OneRedArmy]

Exactly, there's a good reason most of us civil servants chose this career path and it involves job security and pension benefits. Now our foresight is frowned upon, no win situation really.

You had your cake and ate it when you (collectively) campaigned and got benchmarked to the private sector. Now you want your cake back again.

And Macy, before you mention it again, I'm well aware the last benchmark found the civil service was comparatively well enough paid and didn't increase. The previous one was a very different story.

[micls]

You had your cake and ate it when you (collectively) campaigned and got benchmarked to the private sector. Now you want your cake back again.

And Macy, before you mention it again, I'm well aware the last benchmark found the civil service was comparatively well enough paid and didn't increase. The previous one was a very different story.

But benchmarking took into account the safety of the job and pensions

Or are you accusing the benchmarking body of not doing their job properly?

Given that the pension levy didnt come around through the same benchmarking process I dont really see the relevance though.

If it did(it would probably have been done in a fairer way) I dont think many would have the right to complain

[pete]

But benchmarking took into account the safety of the job and pensions

The different between public & private pensions only only factored in for 2007. That meant no benchmarking increase that year which is separate from normal cost of living or inflation linked increases.

Been doing some rough sums on my private pension. Over the last 4 years all the employer contributions have been lost. Total value = to employee contributions. If I did not have employer contributions I would be just about breaking even with tax savings. I knew I didn't want to see that statement. Officially depressed now

Lets see if the next round of benchmarking factors that in.

[micls]

surely the 2007 benchmarking is the relevant one? Can benchmarking not decrease pay as well as increase?

Thats the impression I had. If so then surely when they took into account the pensions in the last one if the previous increases had been excessive they would have been reduced.

If not then it would seem to me that the benchmarking body arent doing their job right and it should be reviewed. I dont see how thats the fault of the public sector workers for signing up to it though

Lets see if the next round of benchmarking factors that in.

Your pension? Probably not. Bu if they factored in public vs private pensions the last time I dont see why they would do any different this time.

[pete]

surely the 2007 benchmarking is the relevant one? Can benchmarking not decrease pay as well as increase?

Thats the impression I had. If so then surely when they took into account the pensions in the last one if the previous increases had been excessive they would have been reduced.

If not then it would seem to me that the benchmarking body arent doing their job right and it should be reviewed. I dont see how thats the fault of the public sector workers for signing up to it though.

I wouldn't criticise people for taking advantage of it but problem is unions not accepting the benefits. As you say if it was to mean anything wages could come down too. This was created under the mighty leadership of Bertie who just wanted to be friends with everyone.

One of the other major flaws is that it assumes for comparison sake that all private sector workers actually have pensions.

[Macy]

And Macy, before you mention it again, I'm well aware the last benchmark found the civil service was comparatively well enough paid and didn't increase. The previous one was a very different story.

No, the last benchmarking said that the difference in pay was circa 15% in favour of the private sector, but took account of the pension to award 0%. So add the that to the levy and you get 22.5% contribution to the pension, above the 6.5% that has always been paid. This is for the additional amount above the standard contributory pension that anyone paying stamps (including Pete) are paying.

Defined benefit pensions were the standard, workers were conned into believing they were, and are, too expensive - aided and abetted by Government who failed to regulate the scheme's and have allowed the deficits to be run up. It was all about profit maximisation and companies not wanting to look after their employee's. Now they're really getting their value from it, by using it as another angle in their worker v worker campaign.

As passinginterest said, pensions and job security were reasons some of us stuck it out in the Public Sector instead of cutting and running like some did to better paid jobs in the Private Sector. I don't, and didn't need, benchmarking to tell me I was earning less than the people I graduated with - I only had to ask them.

[OneRedArmy]

Unless you are close to retirement, defined benefits schemes are dead. As a result of underfunding and the demographic timebomb of an ageing population they are simply a big pyramid scheme.

My defined benefit scheme is probably underfunded by about €2bn euro.

It's been known for a decade that pensions are unsustainable, but given key decision makers are usually towards the higher age group, they have a disincentive to make any changes.

On comparisons versus public and private sector, we all have reference points. What I will say is that is very hard to put a value job security as it's an individual thing.

[pete]

Maybe this deserves its own thread...

Irish Pension Fund Performance over last 10 years

Fund Managers doing a great job!

Fiona Daly, Managing Director of Rubicon Investment Consulting, commented:"Irish group pension managed fund returns over the past ten years have been a very disappointing -1.0% per annum on average, well below the Irish inflation rate of 3.5% per annum over the same time horizon. Indeed, none of the managers surveyed outperformed inflation over this period, with only Merrion Investment Managers delivering positive returns."

We got the usually guff yesterday that it all wotrks itself out over the long term. Obvious 10 years is not long years enough.

[Dodge]

Didn't practically all the banks/assurance firms advertise their products as earning "significantly" above inflation?

For the record I'm no longer a public servant and have a minimal pension