National Stadium

[republic]

Did anyone see Minister for Sport, John O'Donoghue on Questions & Answers (RTE 1) last night? When questioned on the topic of the National Stadium by a young lady, O'Donoghue proceeded to talk about yet another report sent to the OPW for evaluation and said that he hoped to bring a proposal to cabinet for discussion 'in December'. (He didn't say *which* December). Excuse me, but somehow this has been heard before, many times. In fact this saga is downright embarrassing at this stage. Despite the best efforts of Bertie & Co. it looks like their plans are being thwarted and stymied by Harney and the PD's at every turn.

At this stage it seems that unless a positive decision is made within the next couple of months to build a stadium then the FAI will be forced early next year to either:

a) decide to play in Lansdowne Road in front of 22,000 capacity crowds with both terraces closed

b) move 'home' internationals to the UK - probably Glasgow or Liverpool or possibly Manchester or even London.

There is, of course, the option of going cap-in-hand to our 'friends' in the GAA, but I, for one would not like to see soccer hand a single cent to those guys.

Of the available options I would prefer us to move to the UK. For one, it would embarrass the FAI and probably the government to do something positive and get us out of this mess. Secondly the prospect of playing internationals against top-opposition in front of a half empty Lansdowne Road would be a disaster as regards atmosphere and would give a distinct advantage to the opposition.

Views anyone?

[finlma]

As I live in the UK I wouldn't complain too much if games came over here but as an Irishman I would be very embarrassed if we had to play "home" games away. We're been hearing about this stadium for what seems like the last decade. Its about time something is sorted out once and for all.

[colster]

Originally posted by republic
Did anyone see Minister for Sport, John O'Donoghue on Questions & Answers (RTE 1) last night? When questioned on the topic of the National Stadium by a young lady, O'Donoghue proceeded to talk about yet another report sent to the OPW for evaluation and said that he hoped to bring a proposal to cabinet for discussion 'in December'. (He didn't say *which* December). Excuse me, but somehow this has been heard before, many times. In fact this saga is downright embarrassing at this stage. Despite the best efforts of Bertie & Co. it looks like their plans are being thwarted and stymied by Harney and the PD's at every turn.

At this stage it seems that unless a positive decision is made within the next couple of months to build a stadium then the FAI will be forced early next year to either:

a) decide to play in Lansdowne Road in front of 22,000 capacity crowds with both terraces closed

b) move 'home' internationals to the UK - probably Glasgow or Liverpool or possibly Manchester or even London.

There is, of course, the option of going cap-in-hand to our 'friends' in the GAA, but I, for one would not like to see soccer hand a single cent to those guys.

Of the available options I would prefer us to move to the UK. For one, it would embarrass the FAI and probably the government to do something positive and get us out of this mess. Secondly the prospect of playing internationals against top-opposition in front of a half empty Lansdowne Road would be a disaster as regards atmosphere and would give a distinct advantage to the opposition.

Views anyone?

I'd love to see soccer + rugby in Croker. I think there may be a way of achieving this.
What If the Government, IRFU and FAI were to say to the GAA that they would pay for the completion of Croke Park, addition of floodlights and putting a retractable roof on the stadium and that the GAA would get 1st option on usage of the stadium plus 10 to 20% of any gate receipts from Rugby or Soccer matches played there.

This is probably unrealistic and pie in the sky stuff but I firmly believe that a deal will be done that will involve the government givinng the GAA a stack of money to either complete Croke Park or re-develope some of the regional stadia.

[Macy]

FF are beginning to sound like the Rovers board on this.... We expect to bring it to cabinet in 3 to 4 weeks.....

The blame lies only with FF - they should've either backed eircom Park, with at least some funding (not necessarily to the same degree as Croker), or they should've seen through Stadium Ireland after bribing the FAI not to build eP.

The only way I'd like to see football played in Croke Park would be if they signed over the stadium to the Government - the tax payers in this country have put in enough money to build another stadium, and I even wouldn't be opposed to the Government clearing the debts that the GAA have that relate to the Stadium. The FAI and IRFU should never have to pay rent to use the stadium.

However, there are issues whether the stadium meets UEFA standards, and the residents are a pain in the arse (despite the fact that there can be few who's connections go back to the time before there was a stadium there)

[ramondo]

I've been looking for this one. Anyway, before everyone goes into one can we get some things straight? I don't know all the facts so feel free to correct me..

1. Has everything up to now re:National Stadium come to nothing? i.e. there's currently no stadium and no plans for one?

2. The IRFU owns Lansdowne Road. Am I right in saying it doesn't have the money to redevelop it? If it was to be redeveloped, where would the money come from? Would there be any government involvement? Would this mean turning the pitch 90 degrees to use the adjacent land?

3. The GAA owns Croke Park. Does the government have no say despite the amount of money it has given them? Is it finished? Does it have floodlights? Can anyone in their right mind make a case for the exclusion of soccer from Croke Park if the FAI wants to use it and are prepared to pay for it? This seems to be the real issue here and the attitude of the GAA and some ignorant f**kers defies belief. Okay, I can see, given the GAA's attitude, why some people would say 'F**k you and your stadium'.

4. What is the situation RIGHT NOW with the forthcoming World Cup qualifier games? There seems to be a bit of confusion here - bucket seats or no bucket seats? When will we know?

5. If Ireland were to play their games somewhere in the UK while a stadium was actually being built would it be such an embarrassing thing? Especially when you consider the FA cup finals in Cardiff and Wales rugby team playing at Wembley a few years back. While still part of the UK, the Welsh still have their national pride (let's not go into it), so it can't have been easy for them having to travel to London to support their RUGBY team! Yet they were prepared to do it for the sake of a decent stadium.

Em, that's all.

[Macy]

Originally posted by ramondo
1. Has everything up to now re:National Stadium come to nothing? i.e. there's currently no stadium and no plans for one?

Pretty much yeah - seems a finger of fudge isn't just enough for FF, they go for 3 year supply....

Originally posted by ramondo
2. The IRFU owns Lansdowne Road. Am I right in saying it doesn't have the money to redevelop it? If it was to be redeveloped, where would the money come from? Would there be any government involvement? Would this mean turning the pitch 90 degrees to use the adjacent land?

The Government have promised to jointly fund this (interestingly by far more than the FAI were looking for eP). The plan is for the FAI and IRFU to fund their share with advanced tickets sales, corporate boxes etc. The IRFU are cash poor, asset rich, so in theory would have no problem raising their part anyway. The IRFU own the whole Lansdowne Road site, but it is believed there could be problems with the two clubs that hold long leases on the back pitches.

Originally posted by ramondo
3. The GAA owns Croke Park. Does the government have no say despite the amount of money it has given them? Is it finished? Does it have floodlights? Can anyone in their right mind make a case for the exclusion of soccer from Croke Park if the FAI wants to use it and are prepared to pay for it? This seems to be the real issue here and the attitude of the GAA and some ignorant f**kers defies belief. Okay, I can see, given the GAA's attitude, why some people would say 'F**k you and your stadium'.

This, or any other Government, has not put any conditions on the GAA's grants. However, the majority of the money has been pumped into Croker in the life time of the FF/PD coalition. Croke Park is fitted for floodlights, but does not have planning permission to install them (and the residents would strongly object). Personally I am totally against giving the GAA any rent for association football to use the venue, and would agree with the last statement. There is also a question mark over whether the stadium reaches UEFA/FIFA safety standards with regard to evacuation times.

Originally posted by ramondo
4. What is the situation RIGHT NOW with the forthcoming World Cup qualifier games? There seems to be a bit of confusion here - bucket seats or no bucket seats? When will we know?

For there to be any hope of a further derrogation, there needs to be concrete plans set in stone (how many puns!) for a new stadium or redevlopment. Ball is in the Governments court. Not sure what the deadline is, but as it stands at this point in time I doubt we'd get a derrogation

Originally posted by ramondo
5. If Ireland were to play their games somewhere in the UK while a stadium was actually being built would it be such an embarrassing thing? Especially when you consider the FA cup finals in Cardiff and Wales rugby team playing at Wembley a few years back. While still part of the UK, the Welsh still have their national pride (let's not go into it), so it can't have been easy for them having to travel to London to support their RUGBY team! Yet they were prepared to do it for the sake of a decent stadium.

Personally I think it's no more than large tracks of the Irish "football" public deserve if the games are moved out of the country. I'd also say the backlash that would accompany it, aimed at the the Government would force them into making some kind of decision. I wouldn't like to see it, but financially the FAI would have no choice if they want to have some hope of developing the game here (bungling as they may be, we can but hope Rooney will sort them out management wise, and then they need the money to carry out the development).

[tiktok]

1. everything up to now has come to nothing and we have nothing 'on the table'
2. the irfu does not have money to redevelop landsdowne at the moment, but apparently plans are in the works, which would take it out of action for two years so i can only guess at govt help
3. the gaa will eventually be forced to let rugby and soccer (probably in that order) into croker because of the costs in maintaining/running the stadium, but not soon enough
4. apparently bucket seats will not be allowed, the capacity will be reduded to 22,000. according to todays herald we'll probably be playing in parkhead for the qualifiers (unless the gaa has a change of heart about croker
5. i accept what you say but in the cases you mention a stadium was being built, we'd be playing in a foreign country without a stadium down the line to come home to. it would be a disgrace if you ask me, and it's harder to get 30,000 people from ireland to scotland than it is to to get them from wales to london.

[republic]

Originally posted by Macy

The only way I'd like to see football played in Croke Park would be if they signed over the stadium to the Government - the tax payers in this country have put in enough money to build another stadium, and I even wouldn't be opposed to the Government clearing the debts that the GAA have that relate to the Stadium. The FAI and IRFU should never have to pay rent to use the stadium.

Absolutely! Why should the FAI hand over a single cent to the GAA who effectively have a stadium built with taxpayers money.

I would rather see the FAI pay Celtic or Liverpool for the use of their stadia than hand a cent to the GAA who can then promote their own parochial games.

Interesting that tonight's Evening Herald says that it is now a straight choice between Celtic Park and C**ke Park.

[ProfFrink]

Originally posted by Macy
The blame lies only with FF - they should've either backed eircom Park, with at least some funding (not necessarily to the same degree as Croker), or they should've seen through Stadium Ireland after bribing the FAI not to build eP.

I agree completely. Bertie was trying to be too cute and it blow up in his face.

[gspain]

I would really hate to see home games go across the water.

However if they do then it must be England with London, Manchester and Liverpool far more accessible than Glasgow.

Croke Park has already received €140 million of tax payers money. Log term we need a national stadium for football and rugby. Croke Park would be an option while this is being built although there is considerable bigotry and bitterness still to be overcome among the Forces of Darkness before it will be opened up. still I'd rather give the money to them and play home games at home rather than go to Britain.

22,000 seats at Lansdowne even at €50 a pop has to be an option too.

[liamon]

Originally posted by tiktok
. the gaa will eventually be forced to let rugby and soccer (probably in that order) into croker because of the costs in maintaining/running the stadium, .

I can't see the GAA ever going down this route.
While, I hate the GAA, I do see their point.
Egg chasing/soccer are in direct competition with the GAA for the same target audience. The GAA can't help them for reasons of self preservation. We'll see open air concerts, fund raising activities, grants etc. being used as long as possible to avoid letting another major field sport into Croker.

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by liamon
Egg chasing/soccer are in direct competition with the GAA for the same target audience. The GAA can't help them for reasons of self preservation. We'll see open air concerts, fund raising activities, grants etc. being used as long as possible to avoid letting another major field sport into Croker.

I'd beg to differ. GAA gets its support predominantly from rural Ireland, soccer and rugby are a lot stronger in urban centres than anywhere else. Also, alot of people, myself included, like all 4 sports so if there's a will there's a way around it.

[Macy]

Yet again the excuse for no national stadium is that the FAI shouldn't have trusted FF and Bertie - thanks for clearing that up...

Any kind of similar Government investement, without the Bertie Bowl $$$$'s being waved in the FAI's faces, would've seen eP built by know. Dress it up whatever way you want - FF lied to the anti-byrne faction to get them to ditch eP. It worked, and at the time they had no choice financially. It's actually quite suprising in a bribe that it was FF giving the money rather than take it.....

For all their faults, the all seater rule moved the goal posts for the FAI in terms of their ground needs (no all seater rule in rugby). They had the plan, all they needed was to be supported, instead of being scuppered, by the Government.

They continue to be scuppered by O'Donoghue's failure to make a decision (largely based on Bertie still having wet dreams over his bowl), so in this case Bertie and Co must shoulder the blame.

I critise the FAI as much as anyone - sure I follow a league they manage to fook up at least once a year - in this case they were well and truely screwed over by the Government...

[liamon]

Originally posted by Shed End John
I'd beg to differ. GAA gets its support predominantly from rural Ireland, soccer and rugby are a lot stronger in urban centres than anywhere else....

Bejaysus, Oi do be from rural iorland meself. An' I can tel ya dat soccer is fast overtaking GAA in the hearts of the school kids. Even 15 years ago, when I was in school, soccer was the favoured sport. I don't think that urban/rural divide is as evident as it used to be. The GAA has to fight for the rural fans now.

And if you start playing 4 sports, you'll eventually be asked to prioritise, so the GAA have to try and win the fans over. Having the best stadium can help in that respect.

[SÓC]

The way I'd say it will happen

Landsdowne will be redeveloped with FAI/IRFU/Government cash.
60,000 seat stadium is build on site. Leases are bought out from the two egg clubs, perhaps giving them use of a box on match days because they make a fair bit off their cottages at the moment. Usually host pre game dinners there and after game food and drink for players/guests.

The Bertie will hold a gun to the GAA's head and say no more cash unless ye let the Garison Game and Egg Chasing in short term. Maybe in exchange for floodlights at Croker. The residents' objections will go on deaf ears.

The current GAA President Seán "British Isles" Kelly seems to see that they'll need at least one of the two games in Croke Park to survive.

[ramondo]

as far as I'm concerned is where the Republic Of Ireland is going to play. If, say, the FAI approached the GAA and said 'here's some money, can we use your stadium while we get our own sorted out?' and the GAA said 'okay boys, go ahead, grand' wouldn't that sort the problem at least in the short term?

The belief that by allowing soccer to be played in Croke Park you would somehow undermine the national sports of gaelic and hurling is laughable and, frankly, parochial. Why do people insist on using it as a 'reasonable' argument? Wake up.

[liamon]

Ramondo,
It's not about allowing one off matches. It's about a sustained attempt to hang onto young players and encourage them to focus on GAA rather than soccer/egg chasing/etc.. Croker is the advertsing platform for the GAA.
It's why Ford don't want Toyota Corollas on their forecourts.

[ramondo]

Sorry Liamon but..

It's why Ford don't want Toyota Corollas on their forecourts.

Analogies don't contribute much to any argument and that's a particularly poor one.

Are we to believe the situation re:GAA and young players is so precarious as to be swayed by the sight of Republic Of Ireland playing at Croke Park? Would it be the beginning of the end as we know it? Come on. If youngsters are going to play whatever sport they want - they will, regardless of what anyone wants.

Unless, of course, the GAA starts a campaign in cahoots with the RTE to only screen 'pure' sports. Now if only they could work out a way to scramble the 'foreign' stations...

Anyway, this is all based on the assumption that the FAI would approach the GAA with cash in hand (not exactly 'cap in hand' as someone suggested earlier). I don't know if that would happen or how much we'd be talking per game.

If it did and the GAA would rather turn it down in order to keep Croke Park 'pure' I can only suspect there are still too many Rule 27 die-hards around, and will be for some time to come.

[Beavis]

Originally posted by liamon
Ramondo,
It's not about allowing one off matches. It's about a sustained attempt to hang onto young players and encourage them to focus on GAA rather than soccer/egg chasing/etc.. Croker is the advertsing platform for the GAA.
It's why Ford don't want Toyota Corollas on their forecourts.

I'd wholeheatedly agree with this statement.The reason is not,as you say,Ramondo,about keeping Croker 'pure as we have seen with concerts,the Special Olympics and even American Football being staged here but that kids would dream of playing at the gleaming Croker not the dull grey Lansdowne
This has much swaying power in keeping young interest in the sport alive.

[liamon]

Originally posted by ramondo
Sorry Liamon but..

[I]

Are we to believe the situation re:GAA and young players is so precarious as to be swayed by the sight of Republic Of Ireland playing at Croke Park? Would it be the beginning of the end as we know it? Come on. If youngsters are going to play whatever sport they want - they will, regardless of what anyone wants.

If kids just pick sports and stick with them, then why is basktball/NFL/baseball huge in the states and not so big over here? It's all about exposure. Tv coverage, newspaper coverage, going to games. Loads of other factors, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that kids will want to emulate the stars they see playing. Restircting the numbers going to soccer games is in the interest of the GAA.

And as I've said, playing one soccer game at Croker isn't going to destroy the GAA. But it is one extra level of exposure/advertising that the GAA can use to their advantage. It's about an effort on multiple levels.