Croke Park

[janeymac]

If Croke Park was let as a clean stadium to FAI & IRFU, how come the GAA sold premium seats for soccer & rugby? It doesn't make sense, particularly if the GAA sold this guarantee to their premium seat holders prior to Croke Park being opened up to soccer & rugby, which would have been the likely scenario.

At a guess (bearing in mind the IRFU & FAI didn't have any legal obligation to anyone for seats in Croke Park at that stage), it was a handy way of making the pill a bit easier to swallow for the more die-heart GAA fans opposed to the opening up of CP (get them to the games, let them enjoy it) to offer these seats to GAA supporters and clients first. It would also mean that it would help both IRFU & FAI fill a much larger stadium. So, it worked out well for everyone.

I still don't expect to see soccer in Croke Park in the near future (after the return to Lansdowne), but I think the IRFU will end up in Croke Park again, sooner rather than later.

[Bluetonic]

Croke Park wasn't redeveloped in the last 5 years. And yep, I was in Croke Park last summer. A good day, despite being on the losing side.

I take if weren't there last year on August 9th so. Spectators spent the game moving from the lower tiers to the upper tiers to avoid be soaked (good enough for the Kerry fans). The lack of cover in the lower levels from around PP down is the biggest design flaw of the stadium. I can think of at least one game every summer that I have been at where there has been heavy rain.

August 08 Dublin v Tyrone
June 07 Dublin v Meath
etc..,
etc...,

These are just games I have attended. There are many rainy days in the Irish summer.

[Bluetonic]

If Croke Park was let as a clean stadium to FAI & IRFU, how come the GAA sold premium seats for soccer & rugby? It doesn't make sense, particularly if the GAA sold this guarantee to their premium seat holders prior to Croke Park being opened up to soccer & rugby, which would have been the likely scenario.

It wasn't let as a clean stadium.

Premium Seats

Premium seats are located on level five of the stadium. All 8,701 premium seats are contracted on a long term basis and are currently sold out.

Ticket Entitlements

* 5 and 10 year season tickets in advance of GAA match season
* Covered seating in the Hogan, Cusack or Davin Stands for all GAA events played in Croke Park
* Right of first refusal on purchasing tickets for concerts or other sports
* Option to purchase season car park pass for reserved parking at Clonliffe College

http://www.crokepark.ie/page/premium_seats.html

[janeymac]

I take if weren't there last year on August 9th so. Spectators spent the game moving from the lower tiers to the upper tiers to avoid be soaked (good enough for the Kerry fans). The lack of cover in the lower levels from around PP down is the biggest design flaw of the stadium. I can think of at least one game every summer that I have been at where there has been heavy rain.

August 08 Dublin v Tyrone
June 07 Dublin v Meath
etc..,
etc...,

These are just games I have attended. There are many rainy days in the Irish summer.

Stadium was designed in the early 90s. Long before this change of weather thing. One thing, Croke Park has excellent drainage because I was there the day after Dublin v Tyrone at the Tipp v Waterford game and it was in excellent condition.

btw, you must have really found Lansdowne Road to be the pits. Now thats a very cold and notoriously windy stadium.

[janeymac]

It wasn't let as a clean stadium.

I recall the GAA saying prior to the Ireland v England rugby match, when there was complaints about GSTW being played in CP, and some people were requesting the GAA to get involved, that the GAA issued a statement saying that they had no control over what happened in CP because the GAA had let it as a clean stadium.

http://www.crokepark.ie/page/premium_seats.html

I think you are reading too much into what that actually means. If the GAA sell a 'clean stadium' the FAI/IRFU acquired the right to give the
first refusal , in which case, they would be giving first refusal to their own clients. What do the existing premium seaters do - sue the GAA for not giving them something that they obviously don't own. The way it would work from what I can make out is that if premium seat owners of IRFU/FAI didn't want their seats, then they would be passed to GAA premium seat owners to purchase.

It wasn't a big deal the last time because neither the FAI/IRFU had any existing customers, because their rights in Lansdowne would have expired, so it worked out handy to acquire the GAA customer base.

[gspain]

I recall the GAA saying prior to the Ireland v England rugby match, when there was complaints about GSTW being played in CP, and some people were requesting the GAA to get involved, that the GAA issued a statement saying that they had no control over what happened in CP because the GAA had let it as a clean stadium.



I think you are reading too much into what that actually means. If the GAA sell a 'clean stadium' the FAI/IRFU acquired the right to give the
first refusal , in which case, they would be giving first refusal to their own clients. What do the existing premium seaters do - sue the GAA for not giving them something that they obviously don't own. The way it would work from what I can make out is that if premium seat owners of IRFU/FAI didn't want their seats, then they would be passed to GAA premium seat owners to purchase.

It wasn't a big deal the last time because neither the FAI/IRFU had any existing customers, because their rights in Lansdowne would have expired, so it worked out handy to acquire the GAA customer base.

It wasn't let as a clean stadium because of the GAA guarantees to those ticket holders. Lansdowne Road didn't have the equivalent seats so it wasn't a major issue.

The GAA also imposed restrictions on what could be shown on the big screen.

Sounds like the GAA were just trying to duck out of demands from the hardliners for GSTQ not to be played.

[Bluetonic]

Stadium was designed in the early 90s. Long before this change of weather thing

The roof was designed as is to save on money, simple as that. They knew they ****ed up half way through the development.

More than any other part of the stadium, the roof - or more precisely, the lack of cover it affords from rain - has come in for criticism. Although a pressure bulge develops over the stadium, reducing rainfall by 30%, complaints forced a rethink as the development progressed. It is the one part of the finished design that appears gauche: the earlier phases of the cantilever roof extend 34m, while the last phase - over the Hogan stand - extends 48m. The overall effect, despite the subtleties of the design which responds to orientation by varying the amount of glazing in each canopy, looks clumsy.

"In retrospect, we wouldn't make that decision again," McMahon (architects) admits. Back in 1992, the GAA believed they couldn't afford the extra £2m which would have been added to the construction cost for every extra metre of cantilever over and above the initial 34m. Now they make that much whenever there's a major championship match.

The huge extra cost was a result of the horseshoe shape and phasing, as the roof of each stand had to be independently stable. The optimum shape for a column-free stadium roof providing full cover is circular or oval, where the front edge of the cantilevered roof can be designed as a compression ring that prevents it sagging. The biggest problem facing a horseshoe cantilever is bending from uplift, however, caused by wind rushing in under the canopy. The longer the cantilever, the greater the strain, and full rain cover would have required the stand to project well beyond the touch line, leaving only the central 40% of the pitch uncovered. Exposing the steel structure above the roof produces the turbulence necessary to prevent uplift of the roof.

http://ireland.archiseek.com/tesserae/000020.html

btw, you must have really found Lansdowne Road to be the pits. Now thats a very cold and notoriously windy stadium.

There are been far too many soakings to discuss.

[Pád Von Tirpitz]

You obviously missed that GAA is usually played in the summer months to make this pronouncement. Anytime I've been to Croker for GAA games, I've got sunburned.

Ha! That's gas altogether, you'd imagine this was California.
And we used to get a lot of summer rain before the recent inclemency. Have you ever seen footage of the Mick O'Dwyer era Kerry team? It rained every time they set foot on a pitch.

[elroy]

Stadium was designed in the early 90s. Long before this change of weather thing.

Ah come on in fairness, the weather hasnt changed that dramatically. Soakings like Kerry/Galway this year are rare, the rain that evening was unbelievable. In CP during the year you could potentially get sunburnt and soaked in the same day but dont think its that big of a deal really, any half decent sports fan is well used to the elements having experienced them at less attractive grounds.

LR was bad but the RDS has to be the worst, the cup final the year before last was something else.

[janeymac]

It wasn't let as a clean stadium because of the GAA guarantees to those ticket holders. Lansdowne Road didn't have the equivalent seats so it wasn't a major issue.

The GAA also imposed restrictions on what could be shown on the big screen.

Sounds like the GAA were just trying to duck out of demands from the hardliners for GSTQ not to be played.

My point still stands that if the stadium is hired out as a clean stadium, then the GAA cannot legally supply tickets to these games. If however they are involved in one-off events like concerts, boxing or Special Olympic type event, who will not have existing customers/clients, it makes sense to use the GAA customer base, which is win-win situation for all concerned.

Did the GAA actually impose the big screens 'restrictions', or did the IRFU/FAI decide to plamas the GAA/Irish Gov/Tourism by showing gaelic sports in an effort to sell the country abroad and also placade the GAA hardliners (and get to a situation where it is possible to have two fine stadiums in Ireland available)? btw, I remember Ciaran Fitzgerald talking about an Irish rugby tour to Japan where they showed hurling on a video and the Japanese went mad for it and actually showed the All-Ireland final on tv over there the following year. That is great marketing for Ireland. I doubt if Ray Houghton scoring a goal in Stuttgart would be very memorable to German media/supporters and make them want to experience a bit of Irish culture, now would it?

[janeymac]

The roof was designed as is to save on money, simple as that. They knew they ****ed up half way through the development.

Don't know what age you are, but there wasn't a huge amount of cash knocking around the place in the early '90s (company I worked for went down the tubes with about 60 people made redundant in 1992). Most people consider that the GAA were very brave at the time going ahead with that development

http://ireland.archiseek.com/tesserae/000020.html

Or architects looking for a scapegoat?

There are been far too many soakings to discuss.

Shame about the wettings - no doubt you realise as a Dublin supporter travelling around the country supporting the Dubs that the facilities around the country aren't up to Croke Park standards, so its a bit of a novelty for us to get there, so don't complain, unlike yourself who get to use CP a lot.

[janeymac]

Ah come on in fairness, the weather hasnt changed that dramatically. Soakings like Kerry/Galway this year are rare, the rain that evening was unbelievable. In CP during the year you could potentially get sunburnt and soaked in the same day but dont think its that big of a deal really, any half decent sports fan is well used to the elements having experienced them at less attractive grounds.

LR was bad but the RDS has to be the worst, the cup final the year before last was something else.

There is a certain amount of weather conditions that will be missed in Lansdowne Road for rugby anyway (the wind was always worth a couple of points to Irish kickers).

Having being at a match in the Millenium stadium with the roof closed, I can't understand why they didn't do the same for the new Lansdowne. It creates an incredible atmosphere and really cosy. Pity the players keep slipping all over the shop because of the greasyness of the surface created by the closed roof.

My worst wetting was in Lansdowne Road years ago at a rugby match - I had touchline seats and it just bucketed all day! I've never been so wet and cold in all my life. Still, a great day even though we lost as usual.

[gspain]

My point still stands that if the stadium is hired out as a clean stadium, then the GAA cannot legally supply tickets to these games. If however they are involved in one-off events like concerts, boxing or Special Olympic type event, who will not have existing customers/clients, it makes sense to use the GAA customer base, which is win-win situation for all concerned.

Did the GAA actually impose the big screens 'restrictions', or did the IRFU/FAI decide to plamas the GAA/Irish Gov/Tourism by showing gaelic sports in an effort to sell the country abroad and also placade the GAA hardliners (and get to a situation where it is possible to have two fine stadiums in Ireland available)? btw, I remember Ciaran Fitzgerald talking about an Irish rugby tour to Japan where they showed hurling on a video and the Japanese went mad for it and actually showed the All-Ireland final on tv over there the following year. That is great marketing for Ireland. I doubt if Ray Houghton scoring a goal in Stuttgart would be very memorable to German media/supporters and make them want to experience a bit of Irish culture, now would it?

However it is not let out as a "clean stadium". The holders of these seats do have rights that the GAA can't (even if the wanted to) over-ride. Sure when these tickets are renewed this right can be taken away however that makes the tickets less attractive.

The issue with the screens is documented here. The FAI wanted to show some domestic football but were refused permission.

[Torn-Ado]

Some nice non-sequitirs about Croker's dimensions being fine because they have running tracks around pitches on the continent. Maybe these people haven't noticed that they've spent the last 10 years getting rid of running tracks in Germany as they were absolutely brutal for football matches.

Good riddance to Croker. To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's a brilliant stadium by international standards. It's a cold, draughty place with far less roof than is ideal for a rainy, windy country like this. I recall hearing that it was build to an American template, probably somewhere where it's mostly sunny.

I've been to plenty of Ireland away games, and of course the fans on their travels get behind their team in a more boistrous way than home fans. That's always the case. However, for any big game at Lansdowne, the atmosphere has been excellent. I'm thinking of the Czech home game in the last qualifiers, where the place was hopping. I'm thinking of home games against Yugoslavia, Croatia, Holland, etc, etc - any time we were playing someone decent and there was something at stake and the team were up for it, the atmosphere was good.

Plus, it's home (from now on anyway). It's just not the same, as a football fan, to be always a little bit away.

For the big games, of course the atmosphere is good in LR if the team is performing and in with a shout of qualifying. In Croke park against Germany, the atmosphere was shi!te but that has more to do with the fact that we were already out of the competition with the squareroot of Fookall to play for.

If we are playing well and very much in a shout of qualifying, Croke Park will be electric on the big days. People read too much into stadium this and that. The reason the atmosphere is rubbish right now has got more to do with the team than the stadium.

[janeymac]

The issue with the screens is documented here. The FAI wanted to show some domestic football but were refused permission.

And that couldn't have been the FAI making excuses to the EL hardliners and trying to keep all the 'hardliners' happy.

The FAI made a few gaffs when dealing with the GAA (I realise that it was Cathal Dervan who was one of the culprits for trying to stir up trouble, but it reflected badly on the FAI/Irish soccer, but I think the one about team access to Croke Park was needless).

[elroy]

The FAI made a few gaffs when dealing with the GAA

Like what exactly?

[Bluetonic]

Don't know what age you are, but there wasn't a huge amount of cash knocking around the place in the early '90s (company I worked for went down the tubes with about 60 people made redundant in 1992). Most people consider that the GAA were very brave at the time going ahead with that development

You'd think they footed all the money for it them self. 114m euro of the 260m came from public funds. Lotto funds and the money from the advance sale of premium tickets and corporate boxes paid for phase 1.

Shame about the wettings - no doubt you realise as a Dublin supporter travelling around the country supporting the Dubs that the facilities around the country aren't up to Croke Park standards, so its a bit of a novelty for us to get there, so don't complain, unlike yourself who get to use CP a lot.

I would ask you not to make assumptions, I never said I was a Dublin supporter. Thank you.

[MariborKev]

And that couldn't have been the FAI making excuses to the EL hardliners and trying to keep all the 'hardliners' happy.

Source?

I know my sources for the screen story and I'll stand over them.

[janeymac]

Like what exactly?

The two I just mentioned - Cathal Dervan slagging off Ireland's Call, comparing NI/Ulster rugby players not respecting AnaB (unlike the Irish soccer team) - not a good thing to do just prior to the Ireland v England game. Then there was the complaints about lack of team access to Croke Park.

All could be considered valid complaints, but the time was way-off for them and they shouldn't have gotten into the media as it only created further tension about Ireland v England rugby game and wound up the Ulster GAA further who reignated their campaign for better access to Croke Park for Ulster finals etc.

[Schumi]

What has Cathal Dervan got to do with the FAI?