Croke Park

[elroy]

Comprehensively put to bed in today's IT.

We're on our way........

Ya saw Philip Browne's quotes. An awful lot of it made sense, for example considering they are selling the naming rights to LR, the sponsors wouldnt be too impressed if the bigger games were moved to CP.

A more likely outcome in the long term is that the capacity is extended once planning issues are solved.

Funny though how keen a number of high profile GAA figures are to keep the FAI and the IRFU in Croke Park, this was evident in the Late Late show GAA tribute etc programme the other night. Apparently each county board has received at least 250k solely from the rent received for CP. Id imagine all the county boards bar the usual northern counties will vote to keep the stadium open permanently.

[gspain]

Ya saw Philip Browne's quotes. An awful lot of it made sense, for example considering they are selling the naming rights to LR, the sponsors wouldnt be too impressed if the bigger games were moved to CP.

A more likely outcome in the long term is that the capacity is extended once planning issues are solved.

Funny though how keen a number of high profile GAA figures are to keep the FAI and the IRFU in Croke Park, this was evident in the Late Late show GAA tribute etc programme the other night. Apparently each county board has received at least 250k solely from the rent received for CP. Id imagine all the county boards bar the usual northern counties will vote to keep the stadium open permanently.

In fairness all bar Cork and Monaghan in the Republic did vote to open it first time. The 6 NI counties will no doubt hold fast again.

I can't see it being used as per all the reasons outlined by Philip Browne but no harm in having the option.

[janeymac]

I wonder if this is the reason they are saying that there will be no return to Croke Park.

"The FAI are in significantly more difficult position, having introduced a tiered price scheme for their 10-year tickets, although Browne was confident this would not hinder the funding process." - Irish Times.

It would be very difficult to sell corporate / 10 year season tickets at the moment if anyone thought that the 'events' really worth going to were probably going to move to Croke Park, a bigger venue and so easier to get tickets to. In saying that, I don't think the FAI will need Croke Park, but I do see the IRFU needing it again for a couple of games a year like England & France and the ABs when they come back again. I don't see what the problem is for corporate / 10 year ticket holders / advertisers - they are just facilitiated in a bigger venue. Only problem would be naming rights - but they haven't sold them yet. From what I heard about renaming Thomond Park, the offers they got weren't even worth considering.

[gspain]

I wonder if this is the reason they are saying that there will be no return to Croke Park.

"The FAI are in significantly more difficult position, having introduced a tiered price scheme for their 10-year tickets, although Browne was confident this would not hinder the funding process." - Irish Times.

It would be very difficult to sell corporate / 10 year season tickets at the moment if anyone thought that the 'events' really worth going to were probably going to move to Croke Park, a bigger venue and so easier to get tickets to. In saying that, I don't think the FAI will need Croke Park, but I do see the IRFU needing it again for a couple of games a year like England & France and the ABs when they come back again. I don't see what the problem is for corporate / 10 year ticket holders / advertisers - they are just facilitiated in a bigger venue. Only problem would be naming rights - but they haven't sold them yet. From what I heard about renaming Thomond Park, the offers they got weren't even worth considering.

So far all 6 nations games have sold out at Croke Park without any tickets going on public sale. IMO Wales (and possibly Scotland) are normally more difficult tickets to source than France btw but most non rugby journalists just assume France is the 2nd biggest game.

The GAA seatholders have first call on the corporate tickets. The uptake for rugby has been huge (over 95% if I recall correctly). It is 45-50% for football. This may well apply for the corporate boxes too.

Lansdowne Road is in D4. This might be more attractive for some corporates rather than "da nortside".

There was huge opposition in Limerick to selling the naming rights for Thomond Park. Lansdowne Road is call after a road. I haven't heard any opposition to the IRFU and FAI cashing in on the naming rights. O2 apparently paid very well for the former point depot naming rights. The figure has never been disclosed afaik but I know of somebody who was involved in a very sizable bid that lost heavily.

[janeymac]

So far all 6 nations games have sold out at Croke Park without any tickets going on public sale. IMO Wales (and possibly Scotland) are normally more difficult tickets to source than France btw but most non rugby journalists just assume France is the 2nd biggest game.

Agree with you there - but the glamour games are still England, France & ABs and so there would be a greater demand for tickets. To a certain extent, the FAI are lucky that the IRFU didn't go for a bigger stadium to cater for its needs.

The GAA seatholders have first call on the corporate tickets. The uptake for rugby has been huge (over 95% if I recall correctly). It is 45-50% for football. This may well apply for the corporate boxes too.

Different story now though with a new deal - IRFU are in a stronger bargaining position.

Lansdowne Road is in D4. This might be more attractive for some corporates rather than "da nortside".

I honestly don't believe that it would make a huge different to corporates or most Irish people (who know the road to Croker well).

There was huge opposition in Limerick to selling the naming rights for Thomond Park. Lansdowne Road is call after a road. I haven't heard any opposition to the IRFU and FAI cashing in on the naming rights. O2 apparently paid very well for the former point depot naming rights. The figure has never been disclosed afaik but I know of somebody who was involved in a very sizable bid that lost heavily.

The money bandied about for Thomond in the beginning was something like 15m for 10/16 years or something. The best offer they were getting was about 2/3 million (though the resistance to the name change might have had a lot to do with the low offer - no one would want their brand boycotted in Munster! Anyway, Thomond Park/Munster Rugby seems to be very well financed - touch of the GAA there on how they operate!

As for Point/O2 naming - different kettle of fish completely as it has events that have mass appeal. The rights were sold prior to the credit crunch - the usual suspects like banks, car, etc. won't have too much cash to splash and even unlike Munster Rugby who have a pretty high profile in a (minority) sport - Irish rugby & football don't have the same draw for being a very successful brand to identify with.

[gspain]

Agree with you there - but the glamour games are still England, France & ABs and so there would be a greater demand for tickets. To a certain extent, the FAI are lucky that the IRFU didn't go for a bigger stadium to cater for its needs.

Different story now though with a new deal - IRFU are in a stronger bargaining position.

I honestly don't believe that it would make a huge different to corporates or most Irish people (who know the road to Croker well).

The money bandied about for Thomond in the beginning was something like 15m for 10/16 years or something. The best offer they were getting was about 2/3 million (though the resistance to the name change might have had a lot to do with the low offer - no one would want their brand boycotted in Munster! Anyway, Thomond Park/Munster Rugby seems to be very well financed - touch of the GAA there on how they operate!

As for Point/O2 naming - different kettle of fish completely as it has events that have mass appeal. The rights were sold prior to the credit crunch - the usual suspects like banks, car, etc. won't have too much cash to splash and even unlike Munster Rugby who have a pretty high profile in a (minority) sport - Irish rugby & football don't have the same draw for being a very successful brand to identify with.

They couldn't build Lansdowne Road any bigger. I think the size is perfect for football but I don't think the FAI are particularly lucky there. a bigger stadium would have cost more but would still have been filled sometimes.

The GAA holders have the right afaik to a ticket for any event in Croke Park and the GAA can't negotiate that right away even if the wanted to screw their own corporate ticket holders. The IRFU could negotiate cheaper rent and could try and insist on a "clean" stadium but why bother? The benefits aren't that great - most of the revenue from the 20,000 extra punters will go in rent.

Munster rugby are funded by the IRFU. The threat of a boycott did scare away at least one serious contender for the naming rights.

Even with the credit crunch Lansdowne road is a far bigger attraction than the O2 arena. The numbers going along with the profile of the events will ensure this. Football Internationals typically top the ratings on RTE (17 of the last 20 years) for sports events. I think the FAI will struggle to sell ten year tickets but only a stupid boycott threat would screw up the stadium naming rights.

[Bluetonic]

Whilst not related to the FAIs use of Lansdowne, sure there must have been some thoughts into the north stand having removable seats and creating a terrace there for the rugby.

I wonder would the cost benefit of the work over the increased attendance be worth it. A terrace in the north stand for rugby would certainly add to atmosphere and make up for the lack of size.

Obviously this is a non issue for the FAI at the moment, but it might be something we see changed in the future if terraces are proven to be 'safe' once again.

Presumably the north stand will be use for away fans by the FAI?

[Macy]

There's been "safe terracing" for years in Germany, but no one seems interested here, or more importantly as we only follow, in the UK in introducing it.

[Schumi]

Whilst not related to the FAIs use of Lansdowne, sure there must have been some thoughts into the north stand having removable seats and creating a terrace there for the rugby.

I wonder would the cost benefit of the work over the increased attendance be worth it. A terrace in the north stand for rugby would certainly add to atmosphere and make up for the lack of size.

The IRFU charge significantly more for seats than for terrace tickets so they won't be losing out on any money by having Lansdowne all-seated.

[Bluetonic]

The IRFU charge significantly more for seats than for terrace tickets so they won't be losing out on any money by having Lansdowne all-seated.

Fair enough. Whats the price difference between say The Hill and the lower Davin? Obviously the north stand will be covered so it's in a better position that The Hill.

I wonder what potential increase in capacity it could give Lansdowne in the future if it was a runner (granted by UEFA/FIFA)

There's been "safe terracing" for years in Germany, but no one seems interested here, or more importantly as we only follow, in the UK in introducing it.

Its fine for non internationals if memory serves me right, so pretty much irrelevant here.

[Schumi]

Fair enough. Whats the price difference between say The Hill and the lower Davin? Obviously the north stand will be covered.

Something like €80 (all seats are the same price) v €40.

[OneRedArmy]

Its fine for non internationals if memory serves me right, so pretty much irrelevant here.

But the key point is that it easily converts to regular seats for matches operating under UEFA rules.

As Macy says, too forward thinking and fan-focused for the authorities here unfortunately.

[Bluetonic]

Something like €80 (all seats are the same price) v €40.

Cheers.

But the key point is that it easily converts to regular seats for matches operating under UEFA rules.

As Macy says, too forward thinking and fan-focused for the authorities here unfortunately.

Probably right there, doubtful that any forward planning has been put in place to allow changes to be made

[Pád Von Tirpitz]

Some nice non-sequitirs about Croker's dimensions being fine because they have running tracks around pitches on the continent. Maybe these people haven't noticed that they've spent the last 10 years getting rid of running tracks in Germany as they were absolutely brutal for football matches.

Good riddance to Croker. To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's a brilliant stadium by international standards. It's a cold, draughty place with far less roof than is ideal for a rainy, windy country like this. I recall hearing that it was build to an American template, probably somewhere where it's mostly sunny.

I've been to plenty of Ireland away games, and of course the fans on their travels get behind their team in a more boistrous way than home fans. That's always the case. However, for any big game at Lansdowne, the atmosphere has been excellent. I'm thinking of the Czech home game in the last qualifiers, where the place was hopping. I'm thinking of home games against Yugoslavia, Croatia, Holland, etc, etc - any time we were playing someone decent and there was something at stake and the team were up for it, the atmosphere was good.

Plus, it's home (from now on anyway). It's just not the same, as a football fan, to be always a little bit away.

[janeymac]

They couldn't build Lansdowne Road any bigger. I think the size is perfect for football but I don't think the FAI are particularly lucky there. a bigger stadium would have cost more but would still have been filled sometimes.

I realise Lansdowne couldn't be any bigger - but from an atmosphere point of view, a packed stadium usually works best.

The GAA holders have the right afaik to a ticket for any event in Croke Park and the GAA can't negotiate that right away even if the wanted to screw their own corporate ticket holders. The IRFU could negotiate cheaper rent and could try and insist on a "clean" stadium but why bother? The benefits aren't that great - most of the revenue from the 20,000 extra punters will go in rent.

There are other benefits - like inspiration. If you read any of the GAA or rugby player's biogs, they all talk about going to Croke Park / Lansdowne Road as kids (Ronan O'Gara being at the 1984 Triple Crown match in Lansdowne with his father). Football players usually talk about seeing an English team play an FA Cup final/Champions League game on tv. Axel Foley talks about being carried in to Lansdowne Road on Willie Duggan's shoulders to watch his father play (Willie Duggan, even though he played the week before for Ireland, couldn't get a ticket to the match - and that was back in the '70s).

Munster rugby are funded by the IRFU. The threat of a boycott did scare away at least one serious contender for the naming rights.

I'd say, Munster Rugby earn their corn at this stage, bearing in mind how many players Munster produce that are on the Irish international team that earns the IRFU their money. Its a similar arrangemenet to FAI/IRFU for Lansdowne - a separate company which is 50/50 IRFU/Munster Rugby. Munster Rugby has borrowed 10m from IRFU (which they have to pay back in 10 years). They had to raise the rest of the money (30m) themselves for Thomond Park.

Even with the credit crunch Lansdowne road is a far bigger attraction than the O2 arena. The numbers going along with the profile of the events will ensure this. Football Internationals typically top the ratings on RTE (17 of the last 20 years) for sports events. I think the FAI will struggle to sell ten year tickets but only a stupid boycott threat would screw up the stadium naming rights.

02 sponsor Irish rugby at the moment. Will they be up to another stadium sponsorship as I can't see Vodafone being too happy about getting heavily involved with rugby if O2 are also involved. One thing is for sure, it will need to be an international brand to get some value out of naming rights - drink and financial institutions, the other likely candidates are out.

[janeymac]

S
Good riddance to Croker. To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's a brilliant stadium by international standards. It's a cold, draughty place with far less roof than is ideal for a rainy, windy country like this. I recall hearing that it was build to an American template, probably somewhere where it's mostly sunny.

You obviously missed that GAA is usually played in the summer months to make this pronouncement. Anytime I've been to Croker for GAA games, I've got sunburned.

[OneRedArmy]

You obviously missed that GAA is usually played in the summer months to make this pronouncement. Anytime I've been to Croker for GAA games, I've got sunburned.

Have you lived here for the last 5 years? We don't have summers anymore.

[janeymac]

Have you lived here for the last 5 years? We don't have summers anymore.

Croke Park wasn't redeveloped in the last 5 years. And yep, I was in Croke Park last summer. A good day, despite being on the losing side.

[Calcio Jack]

I think a simple point is being overlooked in this debate, whilst L/Road was been built the IRFU and FAI had no option but to accept the terms for rent on offer from the GAA and thus (not by chance) the rent equated more or less to the amount of 'extra' revenue being generated by housing games in Croke Park, however once the new L/Road is complete then the IRFU and FAI have a much stronger bargining position...thus they could say to the GAA we'll use C/park however we'll only pay you half of the previous rent... the GAA would still make a sizeable amount and of course the IRFU and FAI would also make more.... so personally I don't 'buy' the line from both the FAI and IRFU that they won't be using C/Park again, methinks those statements are just the beginining of a new round of rent negotiations...

[OneRedArmy]

I think a simple point is being overlooked in this debate, whilst L/Road was been built the IRFU and FAI had no option but to accept the terms for rent on offer from the GAA and thus (not by chance) the rent equated more or less to the amount of 'extra' revenue being generated by housing games in Croke Park, however once the new L/Road is complete then the IRFU and FAI have a much stronger bargining position...thus they could say to the GAA we'll use C/park however we'll only pay you half of the previous rent... the GAA would still make a sizeable amount and of course the IRFU and FAI would also make more.... so personally I don't 'buy' the line from both the FAI and IRFU that they won't be using C/Park again, methinks those statements are just the beginining of a new round of rent negotiations...

The issue concerning the premium ticket holders is absolutely insurmountable.

Lansdowne premium ticket holders have bought the rights to specific views from specific part of the ground and access to specific facilities (and have paid handsomely for this).

GAA ticket holders have first dibs on their premium seats for soccer and rugby.

Does not compute.

At least until the GAA premium tickets are up for renewnal and maybe then the GAA will take the optionality away. Even then, the economics still aren't clear to me.