Rugby Union 2009

[pete]

No surprises in the team aside from maybe Shaw on the bench,

O'Gara captain & not O'Callaghan again...

[Superhoops]

.....controversially I could see POC being dropped, I thought he went missing and wasn't helping his or the teams cause with backchatting to the referee.

....Re the Lions, they lost every throw to the back. Why did O'Connell continue with such calls when he won any thrown to him. The scrum was fine when Vickery was replaced. They lost the game in the first half on the set pieces....

I don't think there would be anything controversial if POC was dropped. He did not contribute much as a player, except maybe in the last 5/10 minutes and certainly was not inspirational. If he was not the captain, I would say he would definitely be dropped.

Even more worrying than his contribution as a player was his role as captain. As pointed out by OwlsFan, surely after it was evident that they were under pressure in the line-out, the captain's responsibility is to make calls to shore it up and revert to the safer option of throwing to him or whoever at the front.

When it was evident Vickery was being outscrummaged and being penalised, as captain POC instead of questionning the referee he would have been better off urging McGeechan to make the change and bring on Adam Jones much earlier.

Earlier in the week, I am sure I read that McGeechan was urging Bryce Lawrence to ensure that the weaker team in the scrum be penalised if they infringed, I assume on the basis that he thought the Lions were going to dominate the scrum, in which case it backfired terribly.

I heard Graham Roundtree, the scrummaging coach, interviewed this morning and saying that it was evident from very early on that Vickery was struggling but yet they (McGeechan, himself, the captain?) made no attempt to rectify it until after half time. I got the impression they thought that Vickery would sort it out. Poor sideline management.

[Real ale Madrid]

[QUOTE=Superhoops;1181921]
When it was evident Vickery was being outscrummaged and being penalised, as captain POC instead of questionning the referee he would have been better off urging McGeechan to make the change and bring on Adam Jones much earlier.

QUOTE]

I mean there is critisizing for the sake of it - and there is this little beauty.

Could anyone tell me how in the name of jaysus was O'Connell supposed to have urged McGeechan to change Vickery from the middle of the second row? - roar at him every time there was a break in play? Sign language? radio link? any second rowers out there like to shed some light on that one????

I'm not sure i understand the criticism of O'Connell? He himself and the people around him just need to put in a better performance. Yes i think he has been disapointing in some aspects of his leadership but individual errors ( dropped passes, missed kicks) and selection errors had much more to do with the Lions losing the game than his leadership, in fact you could argue that O'Connell led them from the brink of a hammering to within a whisker away from winning the game.

Id bring in Rees and Jones (and possibly O'Gara and Fitzgerald - thats a tighter call ) and go with the same team as the last day - if the lions gain parity at the scum and win thier own lineout then they have a fighting chance of winning - there is a danger of reading too much into the last 20 mins and changing the team drastically - its important not to panic at this stage and treat Saturday as a one off test - the most improtant thing is obviously - just play better!

[Superhoops]

.....Could anyone tell me how in the name of jaysus was O'Connell supposed to have urged McGeechan to change Vickery from the middle of the second row? - roar at him every time there was a break in play? Sign language? radio link? any second rowers out there like to shed some light on that one????.....

If there is no communication between the bench and the players on the field in a rugby game, then it must be the only field game in the world where it doesn't happen.

During stoppages alone, there was ample time to communicate. How many stoppages were there during that first half? At least 5, the try and 4 penalties SA scored.

[OneRedArmy]

The only way you can judge a captain's performance is the impact on hheir individual performance and on the team's performance as a whole.

O'Connell, thus far, falls well short on both.

But if they win the next two he'll be a legend.

It's a fine line.

[Real ale Madrid]

If there is no communication between the bench and the players on the field in a rugby game, then it must be the only field game in the world where it doesn't happen.

During stoppages alone, there was ample time to communicate. How many stoppages were there during that first half? At least 5, the try and 4 penalties SA scored.

Ah come off it man - i've never in my whole life in any team sport heard or seen of any player ask to have another player substituted unless there's an injury . Its just not a fair argument. The Lions had a coach in the stand, a specialist forwards coach and a specalist scrum coach - who picked, and then allowed Vickery to stay on the pitch for 45 odd minutes - they have already shouldered the blame for that.

[IsMiseSean]

Team for tomorrow. Hmmm. Interesting.

Backs: K Earls (Munster and Ireland); S Williams (Ospreys/Wales), R Flutey (Wasps/England), G D'Arcy (Leinster/Ireland), L Fitzgerald (Leinster/ Ireland); R O'Gara (Munster/Ireland, capt), H Ellis (Leicester/England)

Forwards: T Payne (Wasps/England), R Ford (Edinburgh/Scotland), J Hayes (Munster/Ireland), D O'Callaghan (Munster/ Ireland), N Hines (Perpignan/Scotland), J Worsley (Wasps/England), M Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales), A Powell (Cardiff Blues/Wales).

Replacements: L Mears (Bath/England), P Vickery (Wasps/England), S Shaw (Wasps/England), D Wallace (Munster/Ireland), M Blair (Edinburgh/Scotland), J Hook (Ospreys/Wales), U Monye (Harlequins/England).

Lookin at that selection... Regarding Saturday
Im expecting Rees and A. Jones to come in on the front row
It looks like shaw could get a start
The subsitions will tell alot tomorrow
If M. Willaims, Fitzgerald come off at half-time or early in the second half then I'd expect them to play a big part on Saturday.
Vickery and Mears will be dropped and Wallace, Monye and Wyn-Jones will be lucky if they survive
O'Gara wont be brought in ahead of S. Jones

[Superhoops]

Ah come off it man - i've never in my whole life in any team sport heard or seen of any player ask to have another player substituted unless there's an injury . Its just not a fair argument. The Lions had a coach in the stand, a specialist forwards coach and a specalist scrum coach - who picked, and then allowed Vickery to stay on the pitch for 45 odd minutes - they have already shouldered the blame for that.

Could not agree with you more and said so in my original post. However, the captain also has a big say in team selection both before going on the pitch and while on the pitch.

[pete]

Can't argue too much with analysis of POC above but suggesting he should signal to the coach in the middle of a game to substitute a player is crazy. Can you imagone how that would look? Given POC is inside the scrum I also think the coach will have a much better view than he will on what is happening. From what I have read there were changes made to the back row with POC & Jones switching sides but don't know whose decision that was. Apparently there are lefties & righties in second row rugby scrums.

For the second test if it is not already happening POC should solely concentrate on the forwards & let BOD look after backs.

[joeSoap]

Can someone who is on here criticising Paul O'Connells playing performance and wanting him dropped please tell me the name of ANY second row currently in SA with the Lions that is in better form than him?

Hines? NO!
O'Callaghan? NO!
Wyn-Jones? NO!
Shaw? NO!

Also, for those criticising his lineout calls....
Throwing conservatively to 2 in the lineout seriously reduces your attacking options and is very easy to defend against. You dont beat the world champions in their own backyard by being conservative. You have to vary it and while the Lions tried to, they were very much out thought, out played and outmuscled by a better side. Expect the Boks to improve significantly for the game, and a bigger hiding on Saturday.

Bad as Vickery was, and nobody is defending him, scrummaging is an 8 man thing, and the drive of the second row behind you together with the positioning and strength of the wing forward behind you comes into play when propping. He's not solely to blame for the scrum collapse. Jones is a much shorter man with a less long back than Vickery, making him more siutable against a guy like the Beast. Rowntree and Gatland, being front row forwards themselves, should have identified this after the first 3 scrums and corrected it.

[IsMiseSean]

Can someone who is on here criticising Paul O'Connells playing performance and wanting him dropped please tell me the name of ANY second row currently in SA with the Lions that is in better form than him?

Hines? NO!
O'Callaghan? NO!
Wyn-Jones? NO!
Shaw? NO!

I couldn't agree more... None of the second rows have really impressed. O'Connell is still the best option we have, I might however question his captaincy. When Kidney took over Ireland I was praying he'd make POC captain but O'Driscoll has really step up his game since Kidney came in and Im glad he stayed with BOD... The way he led Ireland in the 6N I think he should have been Lions captain.

I think Shaw should partner POC on saturday with O'Callaghan on the bench.
My team for Saturday after watching tonight's game:

15 Byrne/Kearney 14 Bowe 13 BOD 12 Roberts 11 Kearney/Fitzgerald 10 Jones 9 Phillips;
1 Jenkins 2 Rees 3 Jones 4 Shaw 5 POC 6 Croft 7 Wallace 8 Heaslip
Subs: Mears, Vickery, O'Callaghan, Williams, Ellis, O'Gara, Fitzgerald/Earls

Thumps up too for John Hayes, great game tonight considering his late arrival, a true Irish Legend.

[pete]

Shocking conditions tonight in 13-13 game so hard to take much from.

Monye keeps his place as others did not step up enough even if conditions did not help.
Jones may just keep ahead of O'Gara although the Miunster man had a solid game.
Hook not an option at 10 unless its plan C.
Williams played a full game so not sure what that means.
O'Callaghan had a solid game.

IMO Earls has really impressed since the first game. He seems to be a bit light for centre at this stage (give him a couple of years to bulk up) but has been very proactive since then. Even though he dropped a couple of high balls I don't think he could be faulted too much as the boks put up some great balls. I thought he might make the bench for the last Test but now I would have him there on Saturday - he can cover 11-15 positions & could be brought on with 20 to go if required when more space available.

[Dodge]

Shocking conditions tonight in 13-13 game so hard to take much from.

Monye keeps his place as others did not step up enough even if conditions did not help.

I have a feeling Kearney will play on wing if Byrne fit to play full back

[endabob1]

Pretty grim conditions alright, Earls was one of the only players in Red to do anything for his cause, ROG's tour of duty is pretty much over barring injuries, as you would think are most of last nights team. I thought DOC may have made a case for a squad place, Andy Powell was was/is just a tw@t, how many times does he pick and go without looking for support & then lose it in contact??
HUGE Lions support last night I would guess as much as 50% of the 40k crowd were Lions fans, I thought there was a recession at home??

[shakermaker1982]

I'd be tempted to do the following:

Welsh front row (2 changes)
Shaw starts with DOC on the bench
Fitzgerald in for Monye
ROG in for S Jones
Kearney for Byrne.

If Byrne is fit then I reckon the Geech will start Kearney on the wing anyway.

I agree with Pete about having Earl's as an impact sub. I wanted him in the first test squad and I think his pace could cause the Boks problems with 20 to go. This guy is gonna be dangerous at the next WC.

[Macy]

HUGE Lions support last night I would guess as much as 50% of the 40k crowd were Lions fans, I thought there was a recession at home??

I'd say many were long committed to the tour - I know of people who have already started paying off the next tour with Travel Agents!

[endabob1]

From what Gatland said there won't be major changes, I expect an all-Welsh front row with Vickery on the Bench, I think Hook will replace ROG on the bench & the only other changes will possibly be Williams for Wallace but I'm not convinced that will happen & depending on Byrnes fitness, if he's fit he plays & Kearney is back on the bench if he's not fit Kearney plays & Earls is on the bench.

[Real ale Madrid]

Hook was absoulutely brutal when he came on. How on earth can he considered ahead of O'Gara?
I thought Fitzgerald gave the selectors something to think about.

Maybe its just me but i can't see how Simon Shaw or Alun Wyn Jones are in any way superior to Donnacha O'Callaghan, who I thought has played very well in his last two games - with Hines cited i think he should start.

Probably a biased view - but an honest one. Irish players have won every bit of silverware going over the past two years and its clear to me now that the team should be based around them. id start Fitzgerald, O'Driscoll, O'Gara, O'Connell, O'Callaghan Wallace and Heaslip on Saturday and Kearney if Byrne is not 100%.

Interesting selection anyway whatever happens.

[OneRedArmy]

Hook was absoulutely brutal when he came on. How on earth can he considered ahead of O'Gara?
I thought Fitzgerald gave the selectors something to think about.

Maybe its just me but i can't see how Simon Shaw or Alun Wyn Jones are in any way superior to Donnacha O'Callaghan, who I thought has played very well in his last two games - with Hines cited i think he should start.

Probably a biased view - but an honest one. Irish players have won every bit of silverware going over the past two years and its clear to me now that the team should be based around them. id start Fitzgerald, O'Driscoll, O'Gara, O'Connell, O'Callaghan Wallace and Heaslip on Saturday and Kearney if Byrne is not 100%.

Interesting selection anyway whatever happens.

Donnacha gave away the penalty on half time that cost 3 points and the one at the end that resulted in the try.

Both for playing off his feet. Reverting a bit to the Donnacha of old. He's had a very, very solid tour up to then.

Shaw is a more solid option at two in the lineout and I'd keep Donnacha on the bench.

Also agree with sentiments above re Powell. One of the worst internationals I've ever seen. Makes Victor Costello and Paddy Johns look like Sergio Parisse.

[Macy]

Also agree with sentiments above re Powell. One of the worst internationals I've ever seen. Makes Victor Costello and Paddy Johns look like Sergio Parisse.

It could've been through injury, but he wasn't even getting into the Cardiff team at the tail end of the season irrc.