CL knock out stage

**Shilts** · 09/04/2009, 1:19 PM

If man for man marking was the way forward (which it's not!) then why wouldn't teams go man for man for the whole game. (That's called GAA by the way!). New methods will always be brought in to try and improve performance and the opposition will then try to outsmart same. That's why we have moved on from the W-M formation a long time ago. Total man for man marking at corners is daft. A mixture of some marking oppositon players and some marking space is the best method. The panel last night seemed to me to be totally out of touch with the modern game. Chelsea exploited Liverpools weakness in implementing the system correctly. But Chelsea have very strong players for set-pieces who would be dangerous against any system.

**DeLorean** · 09/04/2009, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

If man for man marking was the way forward (which it's not!) then why wouldn't teams go man for man for the whole game. (That's called GAA by the way!)

Obviously the whole offside rule sets it apart from GAA in this regard. I'm sure if there was no offside and Drogba was hovering around the goalmouth he would have Skertel or Carragher for company.

Originally Posted by Shilts

Total man for man marking at corners is daft. A mixture of some marking oppositon players and some marking space is the best method

And the most common method I would think. Liverpool seem to take the zonal thing to the extreme though. Surely the big ariel players should be the ones man marked. As you rightly said Chelsea have quite a few, Ivanovic is definitely one.

Originally Posted by Shilts

The panel last night seemed to me to be totally out of touch with the modern game

Maybe but I don't think defending a corner has got any more complicated in more recent times.

**Shilts** · 09/04/2009, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Obviously the whole offside rule sets it apart from GAA in this regard. I'm sure if there was no offside and Drogba was hovering around the goalmouth he would have Skertel or Carragher for company.

And the most common method I would think. Liverpool seem to take the zonal thing to the extreme though. Surely the big ariel players should be the ones man marked. As you rightly said Chelsea have quite a few, Ivanovic is definitely one.

Maybe but I don't think defending a corner has got any more complicated in more recent times.

1. You agree with me on the 1st point so.

2. If you have a look at the goals again you will see that Ivanovic was man marked by Alonso (1st) and Gerrard (2nd) for the goals. (Badly as it turned out!)

3.Unbelievable!!!
Defending corners HAS become much more difficult in recent times due to (a) more accurate and powerful delivery (b) attacking runs and manoeuvres to lose man markers (c) size and strength of players involved. This is evident in any good junior soccer league. The days of everyone piling into the 6 yard box with a defender on your shouldor and waiting for the corner are gone for years!

**DeLorean** · 09/04/2009, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

3.Unbelievable!!!
Defending corners HAS become much more difficult in recent times due to (a) more accurate and powerful delivery (b) attacking runs and manoeuvres to lose man markers (c) size and strength of players involved. This is evident in any good junior soccer league. The days of everyone piling into the 6 yard box with a defender on your shouldor and waiting for the corner are gone for years!

Maybe but the basics would still apply when it comes to defending them.

(a) not sure about that. There are some very good set piece players about but there are plenty of rubbish ones too- Giggs being an example of one of the worst corner takers ever imo.

(b) Couldn't argue too much with this but I'm sure the really good players in the distant past successfully lost their man markers also. Presumably there is a far bigger emphasis on training drills though.

(c) This just means there are bigger players defending the corners too

**Shilts** · 09/04/2009, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Maybe but the basics would still apply when it comes to defending them.

(a) not sure about that. There are some very good set piece players about but there are plenty of rubbish ones too- Giggs being an example of one of the worst corner takers ever imo.

(b) Couldn't argue too much with this but I'm sure the really good players in the distant past successfully lost their man markers also. Presumably there is a far bigger emphasis on training drills though.

(c) This just means there are bigger players defending the corners too

(a) if you think that the corners are not more powerful or more accurate then in the past then we're watching different sports!

(b) there is a much bigger empasis on team drills now with dummy runs and blocking runs to get attacking teams biggest players 1 on 1 with defending teams smallest payers/weakest headers.

(c) No two teams have the same physical qualities. Teams with smaller players can't go man to man with Chelsea imo, as some chelsea player will probably win every ball in.

Liverpool tried to put their best headers in positions to clear most corners with smaller players in a spoiler role - man to man outside. This didn't work as Ivanovic timed his run for the 1st very well, brushing aside Alonso (marker). For the 2nd which was taken quickly before Liverpool got organised, he easily scored as his marker, Gerrard, misjudged the flight of the ball.

I coach a junior team. We use the zonal and man marking outside. Similar to Liverpool. It works better for us than total man to man. But if you don't want to concede from set pieces imo - don't concede frees or corners

**DeLorean** · 09/04/2009, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

(a) if you think that the corners are not more powerful or more accurate then in the past then we're watching different sports!

(b) there is a much bigger empasis on team drills now with dummy runs and blocking runs to get attacking teams biggest players 1 on 1 with defending teams smallest payers/weakest headers.

(c) No two teams have the same physical qualities. Teams with smaller players can't go man to man with Chelsea imo, as some chelsea player will probably win every ball in.

Liverpool tried to put their best headers in positions to clear most corners with smaller players in a spoiler role - man to man outside. This didn't work as Ivanovic timed his run for the 1st very well, brushing aside Alonso (marker). For the 2nd which was taken quickly before Liverpool got organised, he easily scored as his marker, Gerrard, misjudged the flight of the ball.

I coach a junior team. We use the zonal and man marking outside. Similar to Liverpool. It works better for us than total man to man. But if you don't want to concede from set pieces imo - don't concede frees or corners

(a) Maybe I'm not old enough

(b) Yes I am more than willing to concede this
(c) Fair enough as well

I know you were kind of joking but it is shocking how many stupid frees are given away in dangerous areas- Heinze against Liverpool for the goal in the 1st Leg the worst I've seen recently. Corners are tougher to avoid I think.

**Shilts** · 09/04/2009, 3:46 PM

[QUOTE=BarelyLegal;1140788
I know you were kind of joking but it is shocking how many stupid frees are given away in dangerous areas- Heinze against Liverpool for the goal in the 1st Leg the worst I've seen recently. Corners are tougher to avoid I think.[/QUOTE]

Can't agree more. Lazy players (like Heinze) often give away frees or corners rather than defending properly

**old git** · 09/04/2009, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by hunt4the

There was nothing wrong with zonal marking the last three games was there?!? Man U are leaking goals and they're man marking!!...
Stop repeating everything giles and dunphy tell you, they are idiots, nation of sheep is right

Chelsea were brilliant last night, they should have scored six and fair play to them, we'll just do it all again next year in the CL semi (yawn)

man utd are leaking goals correct but how many were conceded off corners due to man marking i may be wrong here none conceded ... liverpool also conceded alot of goals earlier in the season due to so called zonal marking... and their recent run of excellent results may have papered over the cracks

and will agree with dunphy ^& giles on teams getting built up by press / media trying to make them world beaters after a great run of results

**old git** · 09/04/2009, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Shilts

(a) if you think that the corners are not more powerful or more accurate then in the past then we're watching different sports!

(b) there is a much bigger empasis on team drills now with dummy runs and blocking runs to get attacking teams biggest players 1 on 1 with defending teams smallest payers/weakest headers.

(c) No two teams have the same physical qualities. Teams with smaller players can't go man to man with Chelsea imo, as some chelsea player will probably win every ball in.

Liverpool tried to put their best headers in positions to clear most corners with smaller players in a spoiler role - man to man outside. This didn't work as Ivanovic timed his run for the 1st very well, brushing aside Alonso (marker). For the 2nd which was taken quickly before Liverpool got organised, he easily scored as his marker, Gerrard, misjudged the flight of the ball.

I coach a junior team. We use the zonal and man marking outside. Similar to Liverpool. It works better for us than total man to man. But if you don't want to concede from set pieces imo - don't concede frees or corners

some fair points but on liverpool last night why was centre half skyrtel not marking player rather than zonal marking an empty space in six yard box surely alsono / gerrard would have been better doing this and let your centrehalf mark a player

**Denis The Red** · 10/04/2009, 2:10 AM

Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

(it will probably be 3-3 and the greatest CL game of all time but sod it).

Close, and I really enjoyed it. It's why champions league is cream. Sure, you'll get get some tulips but at this stage you get no bad teams, and it should all be enjoyed.
Being a Man U fan and a little disappointed with the result, I still enjoyed the game and appreciated what Porto acheived. I still think we'll get through (unlike the scousers), but to finish there is no tournament like it.

**OwlsFan** · 10/04/2009, 7:33 AM

Originally Posted by old git

will agree with dunphy ^& giles on teams getting built up by press / media trying to make them world beaters after a great run of results

Didn't see any evidence of that of the press calling them world beaters. Sky produced facts and figures of goals conceded from corners and I think Liverpool were well down the list.

**irishultra** · 10/04/2009, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Denis The Red

Close, and I really enjoyed it. It's why champions league is cream. Sure, you'll get get some tulips but at this stage you get no bad teams, and it should all be enjoyed.
Being a Man U fan and a little disappointed with the result, I still enjoyed the game and appreciated what Porto acheived. I still think we'll get through (unlike the scousers), but to finish there is no tournament like it.

I dont know Bayern were atrocious. The first half was class seeing Barca on fire even though I wanted the bayern to win CL but as a contest was shocking. It would have been better if first leg was at the Allianz. Tuesday will be awful though. The bayern game could have something about it seeing as they are at home but even then both ties are all but settled.

**Stuttgart88** · 10/04/2009, 1:06 PM

My suspicion is that it's a bit of a bogus debate. I'm not sure anyone can say man for man marking or zonal marking is better - as long as you are well prepared either can work. If Liverpool was a Spanish team the scrutiny in UK & Ireland wouldn't be as great and you'd have just said Chelsea took 2 good set pieces.

Regardless of the system Liverpool's failing was their defenders just not reading the ball and attacking it as well as Ivanovic did. A well timed run coupled with a good delivery can get through any system.

I suspect Liverpool's record against corners may stem from having a keeper who just isn't commanding from that type of situation. His handling is generally good but you rarely see Reina coming throuh players to take anything too far from his line.

**Neish** · 10/04/2009, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

My suspicion is that it's a bit of a bogus debate. I'm not sure anyone can say man for man marking or zonal marking is better - as long as you are well prepared either can work. If Liverpool was a Spanish team the scrutiny in UK & Ireland wouldn't be as great and you'd have just said Chelsea took 2 good set pieces.

IMO Man Marking is far better, zonal marking is ok as long as its not a corner or free kick within shooting distance. Here zonal markers often switch to man marking which only leads to confussion for zonal markers. If I were a manager it would always be man marking

**Stuttgart88** · 10/04/2009, 7:30 PM

Yeah, I've been brought up in a man marking culture and like you if I were a manager that's what I'd do. As a keeper I used to always be shouting at defenders to pick up X and Y player.

I just think that a well executed zonal defence may be better than a poor man for man defence or vice versa, it's the actual quality of defending that counts. Regardless of how you're set up you need your CB or whoever to get his head to the ball first. From an attacking point of view a well timed run, like Henrik Larsson was great at, or even John Terry, can beat either system.

There is of course the old cliche that a zone has never scored a goal, but it's more of a soundbite than anything else.

**Stuttgart88** · 14/04/2009, 7:38 PM

Fascinating game at Chelsea.

Staying on the corner defending theme, Reina has clearly been told to take charge of anything close enough to his goal and has done so pretty well. It makes it so much easier for his defence.

Yet another big game goof up from Cech.

Penalty was spot on. There's jostling and niggling at corners and then there's outright bear hugging and pulling down. Well done ref. Reminiscent of Anders Frisk in Suwon.

**NeilMcD** · 14/04/2009, 7:41 PM

Alonso is running the game just like Essien was running it at Anfield. Is it possible both teams go out tonight.

**NeilMcD** · 14/04/2009, 8:26 PM

Whaat a mad match this is.

**SkStu** · 14/04/2009, 8:28 PM

cant wait to watch this later.

**Stuttgart88** · 14/04/2009, 8:52 PM

Absolute madness.

Reina's error changed the game but Drogba's faint touch was critical. Lampard's finishing is superb.

They say great managers are lucky. I saw no evidence that anything Hiddink said got Chelsea back into the game - it was Reina's unforced error - yet I'm sure he'll take the plaudits.

Can you imagine what Barcelona vs Chelsea will be like?

Both those keepers have been dodgy in latter stages of the CL. Cech howler & general dodginess tonight and against Liverpool in last year's semi. Reina against Diaby against Arsenal last year and again tonight.